When is it time to go fulltime?
- Thread starter SSI
- Start date
Pancho Sanza
EOG Addicted
"can hit 55-56% in the 4 major sports"
How many plays per month do you generate?
Anything north of 100 and I say jump in now.:+excited-
How many plays per month do you generate?
Anything north of 100 and I say jump in now.:+excited-
compaqdork
EOG Senior Member
time to go full time when you are "IN" with JJ's sydicate who hit 62.4% the last 5 years
BEANTOWNJIM
Banned
LISTEN TO THIS NIT WIT THINKING HE CAN MAKE A LIVING GAMBLING WOW THIS IS ONE FUNNY BASTARD.LISTEN PAL I HAVE KNOWN A LOT SMARTER GUYS THAN YOU WHO HAVE TRIED IT AND FAILED.AS SOON AS YOU UP THE ANTY AND THE PRESSURE MOUNTS YOU WILL NOSE DIVE UNTIL YOU OWE EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD.WE HAD THIS GUY AT THE IRISH SOCIAL CLUB HE KNEW EVERYTHING HE GRADUATED FROM HARVARD STUDIED ALLDAY WHENEVER YOU SAW HE HE WAS READING THE SPORTS PAGE I MEAN THIS GUY PUT A LOT OF TIME AND MONEY INTO BEATING THE GAMES.AND IN THE END YOU JUST CANT CONTROL AND HANDICAP THE F-CKING DUMB NIGERIANS YOU HAVE PLAYING THESE GAMES.IF KOBE BRYANT ISNT FEELING GOOD OR TOM BRADY WAS OUT LATE WITH A WOMEN WICH I PERSONALLY DOUBT BECAUSE I THINK HE HE IS A F-G YOU JUST DONT KNOW THE BEHIND THE SCENES AND HOW ANY ATHLETE IS GOING TO PLAY.IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE MONEY IN THIS BUSINESS UNLESS YOU JUST MAKE AND I AM SERIOUS 1 OR 2 REALLY BIG BETS A YEAR THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO COME OUT MAKING A LIVING.
STINGER MY PAL WHO THOUGHT LIKE YOU IS NOW DRIVING A TAXI CAB THATS RIGHT A HARVARD GRAD WHO WAS GOING TO MAKE A LIVING THE EASY WAY BY GAMBLING AND NOW HE IS A CAB DRIVER.YOU TALK ABOUT WASTED TALENT.HE DID HAVE A GOOD JOB FOR THE STATE ONETIME BUT HE QUIT BECAUSE HE LIKED TO BE HIS OWN BOSS.
STINGER MY PAL WHO THOUGHT LIKE YOU IS NOW DRIVING A TAXI CAB THATS RIGHT A HARVARD GRAD WHO WAS GOING TO MAKE A LIVING THE EASY WAY BY GAMBLING AND NOW HE IS A CAB DRIVER.YOU TALK ABOUT WASTED TALENT.HE DID HAVE A GOOD JOB FOR THE STATE ONETIME BUT HE QUIT BECAUSE HE LIKED TO BE HIS OWN BOSS.
The General
Another Day, Another Dollar
I'd say keep the day job, but if you want to try, then you should try. Are you a scalper?
BEANTOWNJIM
Banned
JJGOLD OF COURSE I AM RIGHT IF IT WAS EASY EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD WOULD BE PLAYING WINNING.WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU HEARD ANY PERSON SAY I MADE MY FORTUNE GAMBLING ON THE GAMES SO NOW I CAN BUY CORPORATIONS LIKE FORD MOTORS,OR PRIME REAL ESTATE IN N.Y. LETS FACE THE FACTS ONLY KNUCKLEHEADS ARE BETTING THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON ALLAN IVERSON AND THESE NIGERIANS I WOULD NEVER TELL ANYBODY I KNOW THAT I AM BETTING 500 TO 1000 DOLLARS A DAY ON SPORTS PEOPLE WHO WORK HARD FOR THERE MONEY WOULD LOOK AT YOU LIKE YOU WERE A F-CKING LOSER.I DONT EVEN TELL THE GUYS I GOLF WITH THAT I BET THE GAMES.
STINGER GO AHEAD I WISH YOU LUCK LET ME KNOW HOW YOU DO MAKING A LIVING BETTING ON SPORTS.GOOD LUCK PAL THE ODDS ARE STACKED AGAINST YOU MANY HAVE TRIED AND FEW HAVE SUCCEEDED.BECOME A RECREATIONAL PLAYER LIKE ME 500 TO 800 A GAME AND HOPE TO MAKE A WEEKS PAY.
STINGER GO AHEAD I WISH YOU LUCK LET ME KNOW HOW YOU DO MAKING A LIVING BETTING ON SPORTS.GOOD LUCK PAL THE ODDS ARE STACKED AGAINST YOU MANY HAVE TRIED AND FEW HAVE SUCCEEDED.BECOME A RECREATIONAL PLAYER LIKE ME 500 TO 800 A GAME AND HOPE TO MAKE A WEEKS PAY.
BEANTOWNJIM
Banned
BOTTOM LINE STINGER IT MIGHT BE TIME TO GO BACK TO SCHOOL FULLTIME INSTEAD OF GAMBLING FULLTIME.YOU HAVE NO SHOT KID ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE BETTING ALL 4 MAJOR SPORTS ITS HARD ENOUGH TO WIN AT ONE MAJOR SPORT NEVER MIND ALL FOUR.
STINGER WHY DONT YOU BOOK AN APPOINTMENT WITH THE SHRINK AKA KEN WEITZNER AND HE CAN TELL YOU YOUR ODDS OF BECOMING A PROFESSIONAL GAMBLER. I AM ALSO PRETTY SURE HE CAN HOOK YOU UP WITH SOME CREDIT ACCOUNTS ALL BOOKIES LOVE THE CREDIT PLAYERS ITS EASIER TO GET OVER YOUR HEAD.ITS THE BEST JOB IN THE WORLD IF YOU DONT HAVE A HEART ATTACK FIRST FROM ALL THE PRESSURE STINGER.
STINGER WHY DONT YOU BOOK AN APPOINTMENT WITH THE SHRINK AKA KEN WEITZNER AND HE CAN TELL YOU YOUR ODDS OF BECOMING A PROFESSIONAL GAMBLER. I AM ALSO PRETTY SURE HE CAN HOOK YOU UP WITH SOME CREDIT ACCOUNTS ALL BOOKIES LOVE THE CREDIT PLAYERS ITS EASIER TO GET OVER YOUR HEAD.ITS THE BEST JOB IN THE WORLD IF YOU DONT HAVE A HEART ATTACK FIRST FROM ALL THE PRESSURE STINGER.
Pancho Sanza
EOG Addicted
Dont listen to Jim Stinger, guy couldn't pick an elephant out of his bathtub.:+waving-5
Another impressive post by Beanbrain. Manage to insult African-Americans, homosexuals and at the same time downgrade his hometown hero Tom Brady.
What a great contributor you are and I am so glad you are Irish like me.
What a great contributor you are and I am so glad you are Irish like me.
A serious reply Stinger,
in my opinion your monthly overhead is a bit high and your bankroll a bit low to do this without risking a significant amount.
Run a simulation on x amount of bets at a % of bankroll and I think you will find at a tolerable risk level you won't be able to sustain the profitability you think you can.
in my opinion your monthly overhead is a bit high and your bankroll a bit low to do this without risking a significant amount.
Run a simulation on x amount of bets at a % of bankroll and I think you will find at a tolerable risk level you won't be able to sustain the profitability you think you can.
thx guys, and Jim, i was just looking for some feedback...
Jim, im hardly a kid, though i wish that i was... i enjoy your humor, have read your stuff for years..
Been doing this 19 years, i am also a business owner,,, i may simply hire another employee or 2 and reduce my work time, and still remain ownership.....
greendoberman, not bragging but bankroll could be 150k but i dont really want to risk that much of net worth... I could however try it, with a 100k bankroll but still with the expectation of needing 3k month profit for living expenses..
thx again guys... and the pressure wouldnt kill me, as id still have my business to just simply return to -- and cut the employees back...
Jim, im hardly a kid, though i wish that i was... i enjoy your humor, have read your stuff for years..
Been doing this 19 years, i am also a business owner,,, i may simply hire another employee or 2 and reduce my work time, and still remain ownership.....
greendoberman, not bragging but bankroll could be 150k but i dont really want to risk that much of net worth... I could however try it, with a 100k bankroll but still with the expectation of needing 3k month profit for living expenses..
thx again guys... and the pressure wouldnt kill me, as id still have my business to just simply return to -- and cut the employees back...
pancho, ive played it about every way that you can over the years... anywhere from 50 plays to 150 plays per month..... but i do my best when im selective, in the 1-3 plays per day range... one other thing, im pretty much a 1 or 2 unit player, not interested in chasing... break plays down into groups of 50-100 and simply look at those numbers for wins and losses and not so much the daily ups and downs...
no problem in setting 36k aside to run me for a year and see what i can do with the 50k bankroll... no problem to bet a nickel per game, hit 55% of 75 plays.. and your just about there, with pinnys reduced juice..
no problem in setting 36k aside to run me for a year and see what i can do with the 50k bankroll... no problem to bet a nickel per game, hit 55% of 75 plays.. and your just about there, with pinnys reduced juice..
Stinger,
I would try and balance the risk/reward ratio with a long run mathematical expectation equivalent to your long-term rate of return.
That is why I feel it would take a bigger bankroll to make the numbers you are looking for.
Like I said, crunch the numbers to see if it comes out worthwhile.
Also, talk to some professional gamblers about the stresses of the inevitable ups and downs and horrific beats. It takes a great deal of discipline.
Other things to think about are leaks in your bankroll. That is a major problem for many sports bettors and poker players I know.
Lastly, I would definitely try and speak to Fezzik as well as his mathematical mind is as sharp as any.
Good luck.
I would try and balance the risk/reward ratio with a long run mathematical expectation equivalent to your long-term rate of return.
That is why I feel it would take a bigger bankroll to make the numbers you are looking for.
Like I said, crunch the numbers to see if it comes out worthwhile.
Also, talk to some professional gamblers about the stresses of the inevitable ups and downs and horrific beats. It takes a great deal of discipline.
Other things to think about are leaks in your bankroll. That is a major problem for many sports bettors and poker players I know.
Lastly, I would definitely try and speak to Fezzik as well as his mathematical mind is as sharp as any.
Good luck.
thx greendoberman, i used to go by ssi and am close internet friends with somone that i consider somewhat of a mentor in this... just kicking this around, i own a pretty successful convenience store and the income has been good and although i have flexible hours (i set my own), i am really hands on, always have been... ive been wagering since august of 1986... right now, im putting all my profit into my wagering bankroll -- that i keep separate.... as far as running numbers, im a freak at that and have worked it out many times..
basically am just wondering if i could sell my business and make it at this fulltime, im sure we have all thought of this..
basically am just wondering if i could sell my business and make it at this fulltime, im sure we have all thought of this..
BEANTOWNJIM
Banned
STINGER I'LL TELL YOU WHAT I WILL DO FOR YOU SINCE YOU ARE A MEMBER OF THE EOG.I WILL FLY YOU TO BOSTON,I WILL GIVE YOU A FREE APARTMENT,I WILL GET YOU A HOOKER EVERY WEEKEND AS LONG AS YOU GIVE MY LOCAL GUY 10 GRAND A WEEK OF ACTION.JESUS CHRIST YOU ARE A BOOKIES DREAM A DEGENERATE WHO WANTS TO SELL HIS BUSINESS AND BET SPORTS FOR A LIVING.LIKE I SAID EARLIER IF IT WAS EASY RICH PEOPLE LIKE DONALD TRUMP AND OPRAH WINFREY WOULD HIRE PEOPLE TO BET FOR THEM AND MAKE EXTRA MONEY ON THE SIDE.WHO WOULDNT WANT TO WATCH SPORTS AND MAKE MONEY ITS JUST A DREAM PAL AND WE ALL HAVE HAD THIS DREAM UNFORTUNATLY IT BECOMES A NIGHTMARE FOR 99.9% OF THE PEOPLE WHO BET ON ALL MAJOR SPORTS.
HOW ABOUT A SAMPLE OF YOUR WORK STINGER GIVE US A PLAY I AM LAYING -150 YOU WONT PICK A WINNER EVEN UNDER THE PRESSURE OF THE EOG.SO IMAGINE WHAT YOU WILL DO IF YOU ARE DOWN 10 DIMES GOING INTO SUNDAY:doh1 YOU SHOULD START DREAMING OF PAM ANDERSON AND NOT ALLAN IVERSON IT WONT COST YOU AS MUCH.
JESUS CHRIST WHERE DO WE GET THESE GUYS:+signs9-1
HOW ABOUT A SAMPLE OF YOUR WORK STINGER GIVE US A PLAY I AM LAYING -150 YOU WONT PICK A WINNER EVEN UNDER THE PRESSURE OF THE EOG.SO IMAGINE WHAT YOU WILL DO IF YOU ARE DOWN 10 DIMES GOING INTO SUNDAY:doh1 YOU SHOULD START DREAMING OF PAM ANDERSON AND NOT ALLAN IVERSON IT WONT COST YOU AS MUCH.
JESUS CHRIST WHERE DO WE GET THESE GUYS:+signs9-1
He had solid plays when he posted the "Sting of the day" in baseball
Hitman26
EOG Veteran
"greendoberman, not bragging but bankroll could be 150k but i dont really want to risk that much of net worth... I could however try it, with a 100k bankroll but still with the expectation of needing 3k month profit for living expenses..
thx again guys... and the pressure wouldnt kill me, as id still have my business to just simply return to -- and cut the employees back"
If you are so confident that you are gonna pick 55% in all 4 major sports, why would you not leverage to the max so you can make the most out of your capping talents? I don't care how you crunch it, if you can pick 55% laying -110 and not ever play more than 2% of your bankroll on a single play (playing at least 20 plays a week), you have uncovered a method to print money. If you could start with a 100k bankroll and you were to reinvest your gains, then around 5 years later you will be making 6 figures easily. Start thowing in lineshopping and reduced vig and you will be making 7 figures around 5 years out!
thx again guys... and the pressure wouldnt kill me, as id still have my business to just simply return to -- and cut the employees back"
If you are so confident that you are gonna pick 55% in all 4 major sports, why would you not leverage to the max so you can make the most out of your capping talents? I don't care how you crunch it, if you can pick 55% laying -110 and not ever play more than 2% of your bankroll on a single play (playing at least 20 plays a week), you have uncovered a method to print money. If you could start with a 100k bankroll and you were to reinvest your gains, then around 5 years later you will be making 6 figures easily. Start thowing in lineshopping and reduced vig and you will be making 7 figures around 5 years out!
Stinger said:
If you need someone to update your databases or anything else and have that much cash sitting around, I can help you out.
i would definetly want a bigger bankroll than that. actually, i would want at least 3x that much before i would quit my job.
i guess it really depends on your situation.
are you single?
are kids relying on you to feed and put a roof over their heads?
if you're married, does your wife own any weapons?
i guess it really depends on your situation.
are you single?
are kids relying on you to feed and put a roof over their heads?
if you're married, does your wife own any weapons?
Baker
EOG Member
Stinger (SSI)-
I would say go for it for a year and see what happens. The only advice I would give is to do away with flat betting. You are really doing yourself a disservice sticking to flat betting when hitting >55%. You should really look at utilizing the Kelly Criterion.
Baker
I would say go for it for a year and see what happens. The only advice I would give is to do away with flat betting. You are really doing yourself a disservice sticking to flat betting when hitting >55%. You should really look at utilizing the Kelly Criterion.
Baker
The General
Another Day, Another Dollar
SSI is a solid capper for a long time.
Just don't go tout on us buddy. :+thumbs-2
You use systems which I KNOW will work too.
Just don't go tout on us buddy. :+thumbs-2
You use systems which I KNOW will work too.
Yeah Sam its me (SSI from the rx)..
Yes rpm married with one 14 year old... no weapons for wife.
Jim ive posted plays since oct 02.. probably thousands... simply do a search..
have a really nice posted record here on EOG... my notes arent in front of me but i can look it up for you...
waco, like i said, i have played since aug of 1986... probably had 2 or 3 winning years in the first 10 (rough start but i play year round), have had maybe one losing year since...
thx General Pete..
Yes rpm married with one 14 year old... no weapons for wife.
Jim ive posted plays since oct 02.. probably thousands... simply do a search..
have a really nice posted record here on EOG... my notes arent in front of me but i can look it up for you...
waco, like i said, i have played since aug of 1986... probably had 2 or 3 winning years in the first 10 (rough start but i play year round), have had maybe one losing year since...
thx General Pete..
Well since you have a business, I can't see why you couldn't do it. Obviiously you are looking to do it without having to continually reload. So you want to keep that 50K as your only investment.
I can tell you this...55% over 75 plays isn't going to cut it, no matter hwhat holds you are playing. Your record will be 41-34 every 75 plays. Betting a nickle a game as you mentioned, that isn't much money. After 6 months at 75 plays a month 55% is going to be 248-202. Risking 500 to win 481 (average of -104, which won't hold for the full six months) Will mean after six months you will have made a profit of 18,230 bux. That is IF you can hit 55% which I find unlikely but not impossible I suppose. So if you can do it for a year you will basically bemaking $36,500.
Now if you are reinvesting everything you make and taking your living expenses out of your "real" job then you can do it, to some extent, but it will still take a year to reach a level to up your bet amounts. But if you are taking 3K a month out of your gambling bank you will be too static to up your wager amounts. So your bankroll will only be about $50,230 after 6 months, or you are basically making enugh to pay your bills that you have planned. Obviously there are unforeseen dangers and problems that arise, and when one of them hits you will be looking at taking money from your slush fund (the 80K ) or your bank itself.
It isn't as easy as say IF I can do that or IF I can do this. You have to look at the worst case scenario. I did this myself. My start up was a little more than yours, but I can tell you it was a lot different back then than it is now. A lot easier back then to make money risk free. If you are not looking to scalp or arbitage in some way and simpley try to pick winners, I would say stop now.
Only you know ho wwell you really do. Not just the ones you remember. We all have those bets welike to forget about, well if you start doing this to pay the blls those bets either have to stop, or you will definately be remembering them.
Bottomline it is all about volume. You need to put as much money through the windows as you can. Then hope you make 7-8% on it to be VERY successful, or look to make 3-5% and be comfortable. With a 50K bankroll you should be pumping 1-1.5 million in bets through the windows a year. That will net you 30-75K. After you take out your bills you will gross 12-57K, you either reinvest or take some and reinvest some until you get to a maxed out bankroll, one where you can be betting enough to make enough to where you think you should be.
There won't be any compounding in that first year, as you will more thanliely be struggling somewhat. But you HAVE to have scalps/buy backs/ risk free/risk minimizing plays in there. Now is not a good time to start to be honest.
Best time to start is in March, baseball will be starting and the hoops numbers will be softer, and you will have all that free money in bases while books adjust to the way people are looking at certain teams. Build you bank roll a cuple mnths then hit the series bets in the NBA. Those things are a gold mine, and they are easy to get scalps and buy backs on, as ong as you get that first game right. But even if you're "wrong" you can always get out even, unless there is a sweep. Not to mention you have the NCAA tourney, where th elines move ike crazy and will open up some shots at scalps on MLs or middle shots if that is your thing, not really mine, but you can hit a couple which might make you some extra cash.
Just don't expect to go in and make amint hitting 55%, and really don't go in thinking you will hit 55% either. Go in with a realistic plan, and see what happens. After 19 years you shuld know, but a big difference sending money out here and there and keeping that money out there and nt lsing it all. When most people start seeing 4 figure balances they go nuts, when you have some decent 5 figure one around, it is very easy to go crazy.
Actually scratch what I just wrote, altogether. Send a place $1000 and within 6 months or so you should be a millionaire. As long as you follow the Kelly Criterion. You might have to pay someone to teach you I guess but following Kelly you CAN'T lose.:hung
I can tell you this...55% over 75 plays isn't going to cut it, no matter hwhat holds you are playing. Your record will be 41-34 every 75 plays. Betting a nickle a game as you mentioned, that isn't much money. After 6 months at 75 plays a month 55% is going to be 248-202. Risking 500 to win 481 (average of -104, which won't hold for the full six months) Will mean after six months you will have made a profit of 18,230 bux. That is IF you can hit 55% which I find unlikely but not impossible I suppose. So if you can do it for a year you will basically bemaking $36,500.
Now if you are reinvesting everything you make and taking your living expenses out of your "real" job then you can do it, to some extent, but it will still take a year to reach a level to up your bet amounts. But if you are taking 3K a month out of your gambling bank you will be too static to up your wager amounts. So your bankroll will only be about $50,230 after 6 months, or you are basically making enugh to pay your bills that you have planned. Obviously there are unforeseen dangers and problems that arise, and when one of them hits you will be looking at taking money from your slush fund (the 80K ) or your bank itself.
It isn't as easy as say IF I can do that or IF I can do this. You have to look at the worst case scenario. I did this myself. My start up was a little more than yours, but I can tell you it was a lot different back then than it is now. A lot easier back then to make money risk free. If you are not looking to scalp or arbitage in some way and simpley try to pick winners, I would say stop now.
Only you know ho wwell you really do. Not just the ones you remember. We all have those bets welike to forget about, well if you start doing this to pay the blls those bets either have to stop, or you will definately be remembering them.
Bottomline it is all about volume. You need to put as much money through the windows as you can. Then hope you make 7-8% on it to be VERY successful, or look to make 3-5% and be comfortable. With a 50K bankroll you should be pumping 1-1.5 million in bets through the windows a year. That will net you 30-75K. After you take out your bills you will gross 12-57K, you either reinvest or take some and reinvest some until you get to a maxed out bankroll, one where you can be betting enough to make enough to where you think you should be.
There won't be any compounding in that first year, as you will more thanliely be struggling somewhat. But you HAVE to have scalps/buy backs/ risk free/risk minimizing plays in there. Now is not a good time to start to be honest.
Best time to start is in March, baseball will be starting and the hoops numbers will be softer, and you will have all that free money in bases while books adjust to the way people are looking at certain teams. Build you bank roll a cuple mnths then hit the series bets in the NBA. Those things are a gold mine, and they are easy to get scalps and buy backs on, as ong as you get that first game right. But even if you're "wrong" you can always get out even, unless there is a sweep. Not to mention you have the NCAA tourney, where th elines move ike crazy and will open up some shots at scalps on MLs or middle shots if that is your thing, not really mine, but you can hit a couple which might make you some extra cash.
Just don't expect to go in and make amint hitting 55%, and really don't go in thinking you will hit 55% either. Go in with a realistic plan, and see what happens. After 19 years you shuld know, but a big difference sending money out here and there and keeping that money out there and nt lsing it all. When most people start seeing 4 figure balances they go nuts, when you have some decent 5 figure one around, it is very easy to go crazy.
Actually scratch what I just wrote, altogether. Send a place $1000 and within 6 months or so you should be a millionaire. As long as you follow the Kelly Criterion. You might have to pay someone to teach you I guess but following Kelly you CAN'T lose.:hung
as usual nobody seems to realize that the biggest hurdle you will face gambling for a living is not your bankroll, or picking 54% winners (though that helps..lol)
the biggest issue you face.....PRESSURE
can you handle the pressure??? the pressure of the fact the only source of income will be whether or not that 54% doesnt drop to 45%.......
the pressure of how you will react to hitting a losing streak..(always happens)
the change in lifestyle........dont say you arent gonna change anything.....bullshit..
ask yourself some serious questions.....can you handle the pressure???gl
the biggest issue you face.....PRESSURE
can you handle the pressure??? the pressure of the fact the only source of income will be whether or not that 54% doesnt drop to 45%.......
the pressure of how you will react to hitting a losing streak..(always happens)
the change in lifestyle........dont say you arent gonna change anything.....bullshit..
ask yourself some serious questions.....can you handle the pressure???gl
thx guys for all the feedback,, i can relate to everything your saying Want.. I know exactly what the kelly criterion is, or close enough to apply it...
Dime, you are right on the money,,,, winning when "you have to" ,,, is pressure..
Like i said, i am going to simply cut my hours back at my store, and still keep ownership...
I may also take Beantown Jim up on his challenge, and post some plays here.. Jim said, posting plays here would put pressure on me... Ill give him 50-150 plays by the end of october (right here),,, unsure at what point,, ill start the NHL...
Dime, you are right on the money,,,, winning when "you have to" ,,, is pressure..
Like i said, i am going to simply cut my hours back at my store, and still keep ownership...
I may also take Beantown Jim up on his challenge, and post some plays here.. Jim said, posting plays here would put pressure on me... Ill give him 50-150 plays by the end of october (right here),,, unsure at what point,, ill start the NHL...