How many more are innocent?


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<!-- 139162 -->
<!-- google_ad_section_start --> How Many More Are Innocent?

America's 250th DNA exoneration raises questions about how often we send the wrong person to prison.

Radley Balko | February 8, 2010
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Freddie Peacock of Rochester, New York, was convicted of rape in 1976. Last week he became the 250th person to be exonerated by DNA testing since 1989. According to a new report by the Innocence Project, those 250 prisoners served 3,160 years between them; 17 spent time on death row. Remarkably, 67 percent of them were convicted after 2000?a decade after the onset of modern DNA testing. The glaring question here is, How many more are there?
Calculating the percentage of innocents now in prison is a tricky and controversial process. The numerator itself is difficult enough to figure out. The certainty of DNA testing means we can be positive the 250 cases listed in the Innocence Project report didn't commit the crimes for which they were convicted, and that number also continues to rise. But there are hundreds of other cases in which convictions have been overturned due to a lack of evidence, recantation of eyewitness testimony, or police or prosecutorial misconduct, but for which there was no DNA evidence to establish definitive guilt or innocence. Those were wrongful convictions in that there wasn't sufficient evidence to establish reasonable doubt, but we can't be sure all the accused were factually innocent.
Most prosecutors fight requests for post-conviction DNA testing. That means the discovery of wrongful convictions is limited by the time and resources available to the Innocence Project and similar legal aid organizations to fight for a test in court. It's notable that in one of the few jurisdictions where the district attorney is actively seeking out wrongful convictions?Dallas County, Texas?the county by itself has seen more exonerations than all but a handful of individual states. If prosecutors in other jurisdictions were to follow Dallas D.A. Craig Watkins' lead, that 250 figure would be significantly higher.
If the numerator is tough to figure, the denominator is even more controversial. One of the more farcical attempts at writing off the growing number of DNA exonerations came in a concurring opinion that Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia wrote in the 2005 case Kansas v. Marsh. Scalia began by dismissing the idea that an innocent person may have been executed in America, explaining that if such a tragedy had occurred, "we would not have to hunt for it; the innocent?s name would be shouted from the rooftops by the abolition lobby."
Scalia has probably since become acquainted with the name Cameron Todd Willingham, the Texas man executed in 2004 who was likely innocent. But the justice's pique also betrays an unfamiliarity with how death penalty opposition organizations work. While Scalia is right that proof of an executed innocent would be good rhetorical fodder for death penalty abolitionists, legal aid groups aren't about to waste their limited resources hunting down mistaken executions when there are living, breathing innocents still to be discovered. Moreover, in many jurisdictions, prosecutors destroy the case files after an execution, making any post-execution investigation rather difficult. That we don't know for certain about more executed innocents doesn't mean they haven't happened.
Scalia then cited some absurd math from Josh Marquis, an Oregon prosecutor who has held various executive positions for the National District Attorneys Association. According to the Marquis formula Scalia endorsed, at the time there had been about 200 DNA exonerations. For posterity, Marquis then arbitrarily multiplied that number by 10, to come up with 2,000 wrongful convictions. Marquis then took every single felony conviction over the previous 15 years as his denominator, to come up with a meager .027 wrongful conviction rate. Move along, America. Nothing to see here. Your criminal justice system's performing just fine.
The figure is absurd. First, the subset of cases for which DNA testing can prove guilt is exceedingly small. It's generally limited to most rape and some murder cases. You can throw out the entire body of drug charges and nearly all burglary, robbery, assault, and other classes of felonies. As University of Michigan Law Professor Samuel L. Gross wrote of Marquis in a 2008 article (PDF) in the Annual Review of Law and Science, "By this logic, we could estimate the proportion of baseball players who?ve used steroids by dividing the number of major league players who?ve been caught by the total of all baseball players at all levels: major league, minor league, semipro, college and Little League?and maybe throwing in football and basketball players as well."
If the aim is to calculate the percentage of people who claim they're innocent and who actually are, you might throw out all cases decided by a guilty plea, too. But this can also get tricky. According to the Innocence Project, more than a quarter of DNA exonerations included a false confession or guilty plea. The plea bargaining process can also induce innocent people to plead guilty to lesser crimes to avoid charges with more serious prison time, particularly in drug cases.
The Innocence Project cites a study by Seton Hall's D. Michael Risinger that puts the percentage of innocents in prison at 3 to 5 percent. But that study looked only at capital crimes, and there's yet more debate over whether data gleaned from those accused of crimes that are eligible for the death penalty would translate into higher or lower wrongful conviction rates for those accused of lesser crimes. (Those who argue that it would be higher note that there's more pressure on prosecutors and jurors to hold someone accountable in murder cases. On the other hand, defendants tend to have better representation in capital cases.) But even dropping below the study's floor, using the 2008 prison population, a 2 percent wrongful conviction rate would mean about 46,000 people incarcerated for crimes they didn't commit.
Whatever the percentage, DNA testing has exposed some gaping flaws in the system, calling into question traditional assumptions on the value of eyewitness testimony, forensic evidence, confessions, and the appeals process. (In several cases in which a defendant was later exonerated by DNA testing, appeals courts not only upheld convictions, but noted the "overwhelming evidence" of the defendants' guilt.) Scalia stated in Marsh that an exoneration "demonstrates not the failure of the system but its success," but it would be naive to believe the same systemic flaws exposed by these exonerations in the small subset of cases for which DNA testing is available don't also exist in the much larger pool of non-DNA cases. Put another way, if we now know because of DNA testing that misconduct by police and prosecutors produced a wrongful conviction in a high-profile murder case, it's probably safe to assume that the same problems led to the wrongful conviction of a number of routine drug suspects over the years, too. The difference is that there's no test to clear those people's names.
So these 250 DNA exonerations aren't proof that the system is working. They're a wake-up call that it isn't. Instead of falling back on groups like the Innocence Project to serve as unofficial checks against wrongful convictions, lawmakers, judges, and law enforcement officials should be looking at why there's so much work for these organizations in the first place.
Radley Balko is a senior editor at Reason magazine.


http://reason.com/archives/2010/02/08/how-many-more-are-innocent
 

mr merlin

EOG Master
Re: How many more are innocent?

interesting how some think scalia is somehow the bad guy - did he help convict any of them? The real problem is corrupt cops and incompetent prosecutors.
 
Re: How many more are innocent?

250????? :blink:

America loses that many people EVERY YEAR from bathtub accidents.

This ACLU (American Criminal Liberties Union) lawyer is questioning the system over a few hundred cases? Contrast this to the number of innocent victims that are lost to violent crimes. There's no comparison.

It just goes to show you how isolated and out of touch some of these left wing academics truly are.
 

SpyderJerusalem

EOG Member
Re: How many more are innocent?

"it is better [one hundred] guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer"

-Ben Franklin
Apparently, the Founders don't agree with ya, ****rarian.
 

benny0420

EOG Dedicated
Re: How many more are innocent?

Imagine the feeling when the judge says life in prison when you didnt do a goddamn thing. I remember watching a TV show about this white broad who swore it was this one black guy who raped her. 15 years later he is freed. How that black guy ever forgave that bitch I have no idea.

It really made me appreciate my freedoms. How easy they are taken away is unreal.
 

Munchkin Man

EOG Dedicated
Re: How many more are innocent?

Apparently, the Founders don't agree with ya, ****rarian.

Hello Joe Contrarian:

The Munchkin Man would like to provide you with a bit of background on EOG's newest poster on the Politics and Government Forum.

Doc Mercer sent him here to do battle with you in the arena of debate.

Apparently, Doc Mercer suffers from the delusion that this poster is capable of defeating you.

Please rest assured that the Munchkin Man knows better.

Spyder Jerusalem and the Munchkin Man have crossed paths before elsewhere.

During their first encounter, the Munchkin Man told him that his posts are "nothing more than bluster and blow with nothing to show."

The Munchkin Man believes you will draw the same conclusion.

You will defeat him with ease.

91023i2ndw;l

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 

SpyderJerusalem

EOG Member
Re: How many more are innocent?

Ah, the false confidence of inadequacy on display.

Waytago, Cunnntkin Man, you just did half my job for me.

Now I don't need to hardly try at all to make you and Cunnntrarian look like complete fools.
Thanks!

Spyder Jerusalem and the Munchkin Man have crossed paths before elsewhere.
And yer ass is STILL sore, ain't it baby!
I got some more for ya anytime ya want, and this time I'll use lube instead of spit when I'm rammin ya!

Yer welcome.

Please rest assured that the Munchkin Man knows better.
What you think you know couldn't fill a golf ball dimple, bub.
Yer ignorance and idiocy are frankly astounding, and makes one wonder when they started allowin internet access at the state schools for tards.

"nothing more than bluster and blow with nothing to show."
Then why didja fuckin run away?
The fact is that you were "blown" away and dazzled by truth.
Most fucktarded christofascists are.
You can't help it, a life of delusion has made the harsh light of truth painful to ya.
Christards like you can't stand havin facts that overule their mythology and fantasy,

Now, bend over and spread, bitch.
I know yer ready fer it...
:whip:
 
Re: How many more are innocent?

Imagine the feeling when the judge says life in prison when you didnt do a goddamn thing. I remember watching a TV show about this white broad who swore it was this one black guy who raped her. 15 years later he is freed. How that black guy ever forgave that bitch I have no idea.

It really made me appreciate my freedoms. How easy they are taken away is unreal.

You make some good points, but you'd have to be really, really stupid to get yourself into that kind of compromising situation.
 

SpyderJerusalem

EOG Member
Re: How many more are innocent?

but you'd have to be really, really stupid to get yourself into that kind of compromising situation.
No.
Just really unlucky.
Or make powerful enemies.

Then there are the 200,000 plus nationwide in prison for fuckin weed possession!
Mostly either users, or small time dealers who sell weed just to have some to smoke.

These people DO NOT belong in our prisons, nor do we need to be wasting money or manpower puttin potheads behind bars!

The fact is that incarceration has become a business, andf there are plenty of unscrupulous fucks who think nothin of destroyin someone's life just to make a buck!
 
Re: How many more are innocent?

Apparently, the Founders don't agree with ya, ****rarian.

The quote of Mr Franklin, which is also attributed to Voltaire, does not
match the laws the founding fathers wrote and enforced. They fully
believed in harsh and strict sentences to fit the crime. And as no system
of any kind is perfect there will be mistakes. That is life.
Be it friendly fire in war, getting killed in an automobile accident, or
any of the thousands of other misfortunes that life can bestow upon
one of us.

Life's a bitch and then you die.
 

Munchkin Man

EOG Dedicated
Re: How many more are innocent?

Ah, the false confidence of inadequacy on display.

Waytago, Cunnntkin Man, you just did half my job for me.

Now I don't need to hardly try at all to make you and Cunnntrarian look like complete fools. Thanks!

And yer ass is STILL sore, ain't it baby!
I got some more for ya anytime ya want, and this time I'll use lube instead of spit when I'm rammin ya!

Yer welcome.

What you think you know couldn't fill a golf ball dimple, bub.
Yer ignorance and idiocy are frankly astounding, and makes one wonder when they started allowin internet access at the state schools for tards.

Then why didja fuckin run away?
The fact is that you were "blown" away and dazzled by truth.
Most fucktarded christofascists are.
You can't help it, a life of delusion has made the harsh light of truth painful to ya.
Christards like you can't stand havin facts that overule their mythology and fantasy,

Now, bend over and spread, bitch.
I know yer ready fer it...
:whip:

Greetings Spyder Jerusalem:

Wow.

You have an interesting way with words.

However, they still amount to nothing more than a bunch of bluster and blow with nothing to show.

On the other hand, you do sound like you might be a pretty tough guy.

Would you like to play a game of Checkers?

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 

Munchkin Man

EOG Dedicated
Re: How many more are innocent?

You make some good points, but you'd have to be really, really stupid to get yourself into that kind of compromising situation.

Greetings Joe Contrarian:

Excellent point.

91023i2ndw;l

As Alexander Pope once wrote:
__________

"For fools rush in where angels fear to tread."

From An Essay On Criticism (1709)
__________

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 

Munchkin Man

EOG Dedicated
Re: How many more are innocent?

Then there are the 200,000 plus nationwide in prison for fuckin weed possession! Mostly either users, or small time dealers who sell weed just to have some to smoke.

These people DO NOT belong in our prisons, nor do we need to be wasting money or manpower puttin potheads behind bars!

The fact is that incarceration has become a business, andf there are plenty of unscrupulous fucks who think nothin of destroyin someone's life just to make a buck!

Greetings Spyder Jerusalem:

The solution to the problem you have described above can be solved by following the wisdom of an old saying:
__________

"If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."
__________

When people make bad choices and deliberately break the law, then they should be prepared to accept the consequences.

Smoking pot and selling pot are deliberate and premeditated acts that are against the law.

Those who are caught in these acts deserve to be incarcerated.

Period.

Very Sincerely,

Munchkin Man
 

SpyderJerusalem

EOG Member
Re: How many more are innocent?

"If you can't do the time, don't do the crime."
No, there should be no crime to do time for.
The law itself is unjust and artificial and needs to be repealed.
In the meantime, it is the duty of every citizen to disobey unjust laws.

When people make bad choices and deliberately break the law, then they should be prepared to accept the consequences.
Just like Bush and Cheney broke the law by authorizing a gulag and fuckin torturing prisoners?
Do you equate sellin an smokin pot to illegal imprisonment and torture, a violation of the Geneva Accords?

Smoking pot and selling pot are deliberate and premeditated acts that are against the law.
So is sellin arms to Iran to fund the Contras.
Why didn't Reagan go to prison?

Do you equate sellin an smokin weed to sellin weapons to a sanctioned nation?

Those who are caught in these acts deserve to be incarcerated.
Like the members of Blackwater and Eric Prince, who all need to go to prison for rape and murder, as well as using illegal weapons and sellin them for profit?

by following the wisdom of an old saying:
There is no wisdom in that old saying, fucktard.
There is only a pithy rhyme and an inhumane sentiment.

Bragging about ruinin people's lives for no other reason than you don't like what they do is inhumane!

Why is alcohol legal, but pot is not?
Better lobbyists, or more kickbacks and payoffs from the liquor industry?

Pot and alcohol became illegal on the same day, by the same law.
When one was repealed, why wasn't the other?

Politics.

This shit has nothin to do with justice and I defy you to show me where it does.

Justice is the only reason laws should exist, not politics, not payoffs, not kickbacks.

Freeing those in prison who are there for simple possession, estimated to be around 200,000 nationwide, would leave more room for real, actual, dangerous criminals who deserve to pay for their crimes.

For every pothead in prison, a rapist or murderer walks free.

They fully
believed in harsh and strict sentences to fit the crime.
So, spending more time in prison for possession than for rape or murder is fuckin just?
I don't fuckin think so, bozo.

Especially since Jefferson, Washington, Franklin and Adams ALL GREW MARIJUANA FOR RECREATIONAL CONSUMPTION!

I doubt that an UNJUST law, codified in the early 20th century, would be somethin that our Founders would EVER defend or obey.
Shit, man, they revolted because of a tax on tea!
You don't really think that they wouldn't defy pot laws too?

Get fuckin real.

http://natlnorml.org/pdf_files/NORML_Report_Sixty_Years_US_Prohibition.pdf

NORML Report on Sixty Years of Marijuana Prohibition in the U.S.
Marijuana Prohibition 1937-1997
A report prepared by the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws (NORML) on
the occasion of the 60th anniversary of the adoption of the "Marijuana Tax Act of 1937."
Executive Summary

Part I.

Marijuana cultivation in the United States can trace its lineage some 400 years. Cultivation of
marijuana for fiber continued in American through the turn of the 20th century.
Marijuana first earned recognition as an intoxicant in the 1920s and 1930s. During this time,
exaggerated accounts of violent crimes allegedly committed by immigrants intoxicated by
marijuana became popularized by tabloid newspapers and the newly formed Federal Bureau of
Narcotics. Congress approved the "Marihuana Tax Act of 1937" based almost entirely on this
propaganda and misinformation.

Part II.

Marijuana remains the third most popular recreational drug of choice in the United States
despite 60 years of criminal prohibition. According to government figures, nearly 70 million
Americans have smoked marijuana at some time in their lives. Of these, 18 million have smoked
marijuana within the last year, and ten million are regular marijuana smokers.
The vast majority of these individuals are otherwise law-abiding citizens who work hard, raise
families, and contribute to their communities. They are not part of the crime problem and should
not be treated as criminals.

Part III.

The Clinton administration is waging a more intensive war on marijuana smokers than any
other presidency in history. Presently, law enforcement arrests a marijuana smoker every 45
seconds in America at a tremendous cost to society. This represents a 60 percent increase in
marijuana arrests since Clinton took office. Over ten million Americans have been arrested on
marijuana charges since the National Commission on Marijuana and Drug Abuse issued its
recommendation to Congress in 1972 to decriminalize marijuana.
Because of harsh federal and state penalties, marijuana offenders today may be sentenced to
lengthy jail terms. Even those who avoid incarceration are subject to an array of additional
punishments, including loss of driver's license (even where the offense is not driving related), loss
of occupational license, loss of child custody, loss of federal benefits, and removal from public
housing. Under state and federal forfeiture laws, many suspected marijuana offenders lose their
cars, cash, boats, land, business equipment, and houses. Eighty percent of the individuals whose
assets are seized are never charged with a crime.
Marijuana prohibition disproportionately impacts minorities. Blacks and Hispanics are overrepresented
both in the numbers of arrests and in the numbers of marijuana offenders

As you can see, pot laws are disproportionate and unjust and should be repealed.
According to the government ONE QUARTER OF THE US POPULATION SMOKE POT! This is in daily defiance for unjust laws.

All pot smokers are patriots just as much as Washington and Jefferson were when they threw tea in a harbor.
 
Re: How many more are innocent?

No.
Just really unlucky.
Or make powerful enemies.
A real man makes his own luck.

You just made my point: don't make powerful enemies, stay far away from psychedelic drug users etc. Would you like me to send you the full .pdf?

You're not going to be accused of rape if you go shopping at Costco or attend church. On the other hand, you might eventually find your dick in a sling one way or the other, courtesy some headcase if you hang around too many losers from the wrong side of the tracks.

Well, it sucks to be you then, doesn't it?

Does it justify spending 15 years in prison for having dirty sex with a psychopathic slut who decided to accuse you of date rape after you didn't call her back (the left wing feminist definition of rape)?

Well, no, but at the same time, your series of bad judgments led up to you being "screwed over" by the system, right?

Like the abused wife who just can't bring herself to leave her husband, we just don't feel sorry for you.

As realdeal said, the system will never be perfect (read: not idiot-proof) so choose your friends carefully.

Either that, or make sure you've got LOTS OF $$$$ so you always can lawyer up at a moment's notice to buy yourself out of one bad judgment after another.

Then there are the 200,000 plus nationwide in prison for fuckin weed possession!

Excellent! More! :+excited-

Mostly either users, or small time dealers who sell weed just to have some to smoke.

So have "some smoke."

Just don't scream "WORKER RIGHTS!" when no reputable employer will hire you and don't play the "compassion" card asking for handouts when you inevitably become too sick to do, well, anything from all that ganja.

I guess those dirt roads and the locals living in cardboard boxes in Jamaica is every reefer's idea of progress, huh Spiderman? Or, how about Amsterdam -- even better! -- where socialism subsidizes all socially degenerative behavior.

You think you want your pot, the trouble is, you could never afford it socially, economically in your libertine society once all these natural forces of reality were brought to bear.

These people DO NOT belong in our prisons, nor do we need to be wasting money or manpower puttin potheads behind bars!

Lemme guess, you're another losertarian who voted for the Marxist, right?

The fact is that incarceration has become a business...

Everything is a business. Some businesses are more fun than others....

andf there are plenty of unscrupulous fucks who think nothin of destroyin someone's life just to make a buck!

...like being a DEA agent: getting paid to bust reefer riff-raff.
 

SpyderJerusalem

EOG Member
Re: How many more are innocent?

A real man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
stay far away from psychedelic drug users
Ive seen FAR more harm done by drunks than by drug users.
And booze is legal.

Potheads just wanna sit around and eat chips.
Drunks are violent and kill people every day.

Pot doesn't cause health problems than cigarettes or alcohol and they're legal.

Seems like the legal drug causes way more harm.

or make sure you've got LOTS OF $$$$
Justice should never be for sale, and the rich should never have an advantage over the poor in a court of law.
OUR FOUNDERS wanted it that way.

Braggin about that flaw just proves MY point.

when no reputable employer will hire you
I smoke pot every day AND have an awesome job.
There are potheads in every walk of life, from CEOs to cops to firefighters to teachers.
You prolly know one right now WHO YOU RESPECT and don't even know he tokes up.

Yer sad generalizations and meaningless insinuations don't matter.
The only ones affected by piss testing are the working poor.

Why aren't there alcohol pre-employment tests, hmmm?
Doesn't it follow that a drunk truck driver, crane operator, or doctor can cause way more damage than a pothead burger flipper or a shopgirl high on the ganj?

Yer logic is seriously flawed.
Not surprising.

You're not going to be accused of rape if you go shopping at Costco or attend church.
Wanna bet?

http://www.wsmv.com/news/22315112/detail.html
Youth Minister Indicted On Child Rape Charges
http://www.vindy.com/news/2009/feb/20/pastor-faces-6-rape-charges/?newswatch
The former Cornersburg clergyman used his authority to take advantage of the woman, a prosecutor alleges.
http://www.harrowtimes.co.uk/news/5009131.Preacher_jailed_for_week_of_rape/
A "REMORSELESS" Wembley preacher who raped a woman on seven consecutive days was jailed on Friday.

Its beginnin to look as if a church is LAST place you'd wanna go if yer avoidin bein raped!

Or, how about Amsterdam -- even better! -- where socialism subsidizes all socially degenerative behavior.

Netherlands

Variable Amount/description Rank

Crime > Assaults 44,129 [14th of 58]
Crime > Car thefts (per capita) 2.33559 per 1,000 people [15th of 55]
Crime > Drug offences 47 per 100,000 people [20th of 36]
Crime > Illicit drugs
major European producer of ecstasy, illicit amphetamines, and other synthetic drugs; important gateway for cocaine, heroin, and hashish entering Europe; major source of US-bound ecstasy; large financial sector vulnerable to money laundering
Crime > Murders 183 [40th of 63]
Crime > Murders (per capita) 0.0111538 per 1,000 people [51st of 62]
Crime > Rapes 1,648 [20th of 66]
Crime > Rapes (per capita) 0.100445 per 1,000 people [22nd of 65]
Crime > Total crimes 1,305,640 [14th of 61]
Crime > Total crimes (per capita) 79.5779 per 1,000 people


USA;

Variable Amount/description Rank

Crime > Assaults 2,238,480 [1st of 58]
Crime > Car thefts (per capita) 3.8795 per 1,000 people [9th of 55]
Crime > Murders 12,658 [6th of 63]
Crime > Murders (per capita) 0.042802 per 1,000 people [24th of 62]
Crime > Murders with firearms 8,259 [4th of 32]
Crime > Murders with firearms (per capita) 0.0279271 per 1,000 people [8th of 32]
Crime > Rapes 89,110 [1st of 66]
Crime > Rapes (per capita) 0.301318 per 1,000 people [9th of 65]
Crime > Total crimes 23,677,800 [1st of 61]
Crime > Total crimes (per capita) 80.0645 per 1,000 people [8th of 60]

If its so terrible, why do we have the number eight crime rate in the world, whereas the Netherlands ranks fourteen?
I guess they must be doin somethin right, and obviously the legal drugs don't hurt them at all.

They also have a higher average income per capita, a better health care system, a longer life expectancy, and lower infant mortality than the US.

Somehow, yer demonization of their socialist system is empty and meaningless.
they beat us in every fuckin way.
Their schools are better, their kids smarter, they speak more languages, they have more college grads, a larger portion of their workforce is professional, and their criminal classes are vanishing.

Exactly what about the Netherlands is bad?

You think you want your pot, the trouble is, you could never afford it socially, economically in your libertine society once all these natural forces of reality were brought to bear.

They do.
Yer just plain wrong, as I've shown.
Try again.
 

SpyderJerusalem

EOG Member
Re: How many more are innocent?

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes

Crime Stats By Country

US is NUMBER ONE!

Nothin to brag about though.

The Netherlands are #13

How could a SOCIALIST country do so much better than the US, huh?

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lif_can_use-lifestyle-cannabis-use

Here's CANNABIS USE BY COUNTRY:

US is #3
Netherlands is #9

But, but, but how can that be?

They use pot less in a country where it is legal, but more in a country where it isn't?

Hmmmm.
 
Re: How many more are innocent?

.


I smoke pot every day AND have an awesome job.
There are potheads in every walk of life, from CEOs to cops to firefighters to teachers.
There are killers and thieves in "awesome jobs" also- that doesn't make their actions beneficial to society as a whole. I would prefer not to have a society that gives more incentive for people to be intoxicated beyond what there already is. There are enough stupid and lazy people as it is; we don't need any more who want to "sit around and eat chips" all day. Your whole argument is inconsistent in that drug addicts can be productive while also sitting around and eating chips all day. :+clueless

As for your comments on drug policy and crime rate, if you hate the situation in this country so much, you are free to leave and move elsewhere.
 
Re: How many more are innocent?

Ive seen FAR more harm done by drunks than by drug users.
And booze is legal.

Non-sequitur. I never mentioned alcohol.

But before you regurgitate the usual inane left wing talking point that "alcohol prohibition was a failure", look up the number of fatalities and violence related to alcohol and tell me the definition of "success".

Potheads just wanna sit around and eat chips.
Sit around, eat chips, play video games and suck off the govt tit.

No thanks.

I'm sorry, but you have a mental disorder if you need to ingest/inject/inhale harmful mind-altering substances of any kind.

You're hiding from something and should just grow up and deal with whatever demons from your childhood that are haunting you.

Drunks are violent and kill people every day.
In other news, Katie Couric is the highest paid news anchor with the lowest ratings in television history.

Pot doesn't cause health problems than cigarettes or alcohol and they're legal.
:LMAO

Marijuana Fact Sheet:

http://www.well.com/user/woa/fspot.htm

And don't even get me started on the "Manny" hard stuff...

Justice should never be for sale, and the rich should never have an advantage over the poor in a court of law.

OUR FOUNDERS wanted it that way.

Braggin about that flaw just proves MY point.
Our Founders designed the Constitution for a free and moral people and no others.

The fact that money can overcome socially degenerative behavior underscores the erosion of a once, great and free society inside and out, courtesy of the narcissistic, nihilistic, celeb-rotten post-1960s left wing culture that you and your ilk champion at every opportunity.

I smoke pot every day AND have an awesome job.
Good for you. Though I still stand by my statement that without these unconstitutional collective rights (socialism: individual rights, collective responsibilities), you wouldn't survive.

There are potheads in every walk of life, from CEOs to cops to firefighters to teachers.
You prolly know one right now WHO YOU RESPECT and don't even know he tokes up.

I 'prolly' don't.

Your touchy-feely anecdotal evidence means nothing.

I know quite a few people, thank you very much, who smoked in their youth straight into their adulthood and had to quit because of deteriorating health.

Yer sad generalizations and meaningless insinuations don't matter.

Pot meet Mr. Kettle.
The only ones affected by piss testing are the working poor.[/quote]

Another euphemism for socialism: "earned" income tax credits for the "working poor."

Doesn't it follow that a drunk truck driver, crane operator, or doctor can cause way more damage than a pothead burger flipper or a shopgirl high on the ganj?

Doesn't it follow a stoned crane operator, or doctor can cause way more damage than an intoxicated burger flipper or shop girl drunk as a skunk?

How many airhead RINOs (Meagan McCain comes to mind) have fallen for your laughable Jon Stewart shell game, Spiderman?

Yer logic is seriously flawed.
Not surprising.

You have none.

Its beginnin to look as if a church is LAST place you'd wanna go if yer avoidin bein raped!

I never said child predators don't target the most vulnerable in places where people least expect them, what I said was that innocent, law-abiding citizens with good judgment aren't going to be accused of being a rapist in a place like a church.

Or are you suggesting those predators in those three links were innocent and are therefore getting a bad rap?

If its so terrible, why do we have the number eight crime rate in the world, whereas the Netherlands ranks fourteen?
I guess they must be doin somethin right, and obviously the legal drugs don't hurt them at all.

Good Lord. :doh1
The connection between Amsterdam’s coffeeshops and organized crime

They also have a higher average income per capita...

Income = welfare

a better health care system

No, they don't. Get real.

Nobody in a free country is suicidal enough to travel to the Netherlands for health care...but plenty of Europeans travel to the US to get treated as humans -- as opposed to a statistic (bureaucratic death panels using fancy mathematical formulas deciding if your particular condition is worth treating or not).

a longer life expectancy

It all depends how and who's measuring the statistics. Example in 3-2-1....

and lower infant mortality than the US.

The infant mortality rate in the US you libs keep parroting is very misleading and an extremely sneaky way to push a political agenda.

Low birth weight infants are not counted against the "live birth" statistics the way they are in the US because most of these socialist SET LOWER STANDARDS!

For example, In Austria and Germany a premature baby weighing <500g is not considered a living child.

See how it works? The government lowers the bar and the people actually believe they're better off.

Socialism is equal access...to nothing.

In Europe you get taken the hospital for free, but the state-of-the-art treatments and drugs we have in the US aren't on the menu. So you get sent home to die. But hey, at least you weren't turned away for a "preexisting condition" by those evil insurance companies. :hangt
Somehow, yer demonization of their socialist system is empty and meaningless.

Socialism is empty and meaningless, you are correct.

It's also unconstitutional, Mr. I-Love-The-Founding-Fathers.

they beat us in every fuckin way.
Their schools are better, their kids smarter, they speak more languages, they have more college grads, a larger portion of their workforce is professional, and their criminal classes are vanishing.[/quote]

Average gross domestic product (GDP) in the US is about 40% higher than average GDP of the EU-15 when measured at purchasing power parity (PPP).

Europeans are much poorer than their American counterparts in every measurable apples to apples statistic.

The welfare class in America lives like the middle class in Europe do.

They're just more equal in misery.

Again, lower standards, diff ways of measuring success vs failure means better scores.

Netherlands public debt is 45% GDP. They are going down for the same reason we're going down: socialism.

Exactly what about the Netherlands is bad?

Everything.

For one, they're being overrun by angry, immigrant Muslims (ever heard of Theo Van Gogh?) because the Dutch don't reproduce -- their birthrate is in the toilet. Too much leisure sitting around smoking pot means the Dutch are being "socially engineered" out of existence.

Since you have such great admiration for this non-existent Utopia, I will be more than happy to post real on-the-ground news about a country that, for all intents and purposes, won't exist in 20-30 years.
 

SpyderJerusalem

EOG Member
Re: How many more are innocent?

Non-sequitur. I never mentioned alcohol.
Any discussion of marijuana must include alcohol.
Both are drugs.
Both were made illegal through the same prohibition measures.
Both are intoxicants that people use for recreation.

You don't seem to know what non-sequitur actually means.

look up the number of fatalities and violence related to alcohol and tell me the definition of "success".
During Prohibition, or after?
During Prohibition alcohol was a black market drug just like pot is now, and run by much the same type of criminals, who killed to protect their interests and caused countless deaths by providing inferior, poisonous products.

As far as alcohol deaths after prohibition, how about comparing the number of marijuana deaths to the number of alcohol deaths.

There have been no deaths because of marijuana overdose EVER.
The same cannot be said of alcohol.

and suck off the govt tit.
Actually, according to government stats, more alcoholics benefit from government aid than drug addicts.

Maybe thats because there are nearly ten times more alcoholics than drug addicts!

You can look that up yerself.
If you won't post links to prove yer bullshit, why should I.
I can prove everything I say with readily available info.
Can you?

I'm sorry, but you have a mental disorder if you need to ingest/inject/inhale harmful mind-altering substances of any kind.
George Bush snorted coke A LOT.
Does he have a mental disorder?
How about Bill Gates?
Smokes weed all the time.
Mark Cuban?
HUGE POTHEAD!

Yer charge has no merit.

Marijuana Fact Sheet:
Propaganda.

Here's the TRUE Fact Sheet:

http://www.drugpolicy.org/marijuana/factsmyths/
Myth: Marijuana Can Cause Permanent Mental Illness. Among adolescents, even occasional marijuana use may cause psychological damage. During intoxication, marijuana users become irrational and often behave erratically.

Fact: There is no convincing scientific evidence that marijuana causes psychological damage or mental illness in either teenagers or adults. Some marijuana users experience psychological distress following marijuana ingestion, which may include feelings of panic, anxiety, and paranoia. Such experiences can be frightening, but the effects are temporary. With very large doses, marijuana can cause temporary toxic psychosis. This occurs rarely, and almost always when marijuana is eaten rather than smoked. Marijuana does not cause profound changes in people's behavior.

Our Founders designed the Constitution for a free and moral people and no others.
And fought hard to keep it ONLY FOR RICH WHITE MEN!

Get it straight.
Though I still stand by my statement that without these unconstitutional collective rights (socialism: individual rights, collective responsibilities), you wouldn't survive.
I guarantee you I make more money in a week than you make in a month.
I have NEVER fuckin availed myself of ANY social services.

I doubt you could say the same.
Doesn't it follow a stoned crane operator, or doctor can cause way more damage than an intoxicated burger flipper or shop girl drunk as a skunk?
No.
Pot has been proven NOT to impair the user anywhere NEAR as bad as alcohol does.
I would much rather have a crane operator smokin a joint than a burger flipper drunk.

Fact: There is no compelling evidence that marijuana contributes substantially to traffic accidents and fatalities. At some doses, marijuana affects perception and psychomotor performances- changes which could impair driving ability. However, in driving studies, marijuana produces little or no car-handling impairment- consistently less than produced by low moderate doses of alcohol and many legal medications. In contrast to alcohol, which tends to increase risky driving practices, marijuana tends to make subjects more cautious. Surveys of fatally injured drivers show that when THC is detected in the blood, alcohol is almost always detected as well. For some individuals, marijuana may play a role in bad driving. The overall rate of highway accidents appears not to be significantly affected by marijuana's widespread use in society.

You have none.
Well, I sure am fuckin kickin yer sad ass, babe!
You can't even post a decent citation or come up with a worthy rebuttal that doesn't include opinion.

As far as debate goes, yer a total fuckin loser.

The connection between Amsterdam?s coffeeshops and organized crime
From yer link:

The project leaders reiterate that it is not the City?s intention to gentrify the area, but rather to make sure the gradual degradation is reversed ? in large part by taking away the profit incentive that has attracted 16+ criminal gangs to the district.
The problem is NOT the drugs, its the regulation, dumbass.
They're still makin the mistake of keepin some form of prohibition active, thus giving rise to a black market.
If they removed the restrictions, the gangs would leave.

a better health care system
No, they don't. Get real.

Low birth weight infants are not counted against the "live birth" statistics the way they are in the US because most of these socialist SET LOWER STANDARDS!

For example, In Austria and Germany a premature baby weighing <500g is not considered a living child.

Do ya plan on provin this or should I just take yer word for it?
In Europe you get taken the hospital for free, but the state-of-the-art treatments and drugs we have in the US aren't on the menu.
Or this?

They sound like conservatard talking points, and so I doubt they have in basis in fuckin reality.

Here are some facts:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_dru_acc-health-drug-access

Europeans have exactly the same drug access as the US

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_hea_car_fun_tot_per_cap-care-funding-total-per-capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_hos_bed_per_1000_peo-beds-per-1-000-people

We have the highest healthcare funding per capita, but are # 81 in the number of hospital beds available.
Every European country beats us.
Even RUSSIA beats us!

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_bir_rat_cru_per_1000_peo-crude-per-1-000-people

It seems that yer claim that the birthrate of the netherlands is causin them to die off is just plain fuckin wrong, tard!

Netherlands is #155, the US is #141.
Japan has a lower birthrate than both of those, and you don't think their worried they "won't exist in 20-30 years."?

Never before have I come across such an interminable dumbfuck.
Someone who would rather spout emotional diatribes filled with lies than actually discuss an issue with facts.

You are no more a challenge to me than whackin off in yer socks is a challenge fer you!

So far, i've made you my bitch so many times yer anus prolly resembles a wizard's sleeve!

Socialism is empty and meaningless, you are correct.

It's also unconstitutional, Mr. I-Love-The-Founding-Fathers.

WRONG!

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Socialism is more Constitutional than capitalism ever was!
 
Re: How many more are innocent?

Any discussion of marijuana must include alcohol.

Says who?

So you can justify your poison by waving around a bigger poison?

Convenient.

Both are drugs.
Uh huh.

Both were made illegal through the same prohibition measures.
Both are intoxicants that people use for recreation.
Uh huh.

You don't seem to know what non-sequitur actually means.
Non-sequitur is a type of amusing logical fallacy -- like liberalism.

During Prohibition alcohol was a black market drug just like pot is now, and run by much the same type of criminals, who killed to protect their interests and caused countless deaths by providing inferior, poisonous products.
How many deaths during Prohibition, genius? More than 100,000 a year? Because that's what we're living with right now by mainstreaming alcohol consumption.

You call 100,000 deaths a smashing success and believe society would be better served repeating the same mistake with pot.

Btw, we're losing the war on murder (and rape and every other horrific, violent crime) because people are still committing those crimes also.

Using your logic, legalizing any kind of destructive behavior = mission accomplished.

As far as alcohol deaths after prohibition, how about comparing the number of marijuana deaths to the number of alcohol deaths.
How bout you quit moving the goalposts and stay on topic so I can make you eat your own bullshit.

There have been no deaths because of marijuana overdose EVER.
The same cannot be said of alcohol.
Another non-sequitur.

What's next? Justifying rape by comparing it to pedophilia?

Actually, according to government stats, more alcoholics benefit from government aid than drug addicts.
Because welfare addicts are open about their drug use, right? :doh1

How bout we try mandatory drug testing for ANYONE receiving social services and resume this discussion then.

Maybe thats because there are nearly ten times more alcoholics than drug addicts!
Or maybe it's because one activity is completely legal and no longer a social taboo, while the other is still "in the closet" so to speak.

You can look that up yerself.
If you won't post links to prove yer bullshit, why should I.
I can prove everything I say with readily available info.
Can you?
I can prove anything.
But I don't do link wars -- tacky!

I can hold my own using only rational thought and the faculty of reason.

If you can't keep up, that's not my problem.

George Bush snorted coke A LOT.
Does he have a mental disorder?
Yes...but Dubya's drug days are long behind him. He gave that up when he defeated his own inner-narcissism by dedicating his life to something greater than himself: Jesus Christ.

How about Bill Gates?
Smokes weed all the time.
He won't live past 70.

Mark Cuban?
HUGE POTHEAD!

You mean huge DOPEHEAD!

Mark Cuban under fire over new film on Iraq war

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...-cuban_1114gl.ART0.State.Edition2.cc6bde.html

Like I said, you think link wars = debating.

Why bother having a debate at all if we can just cut and paste other people's arguments?

And fought hard to keep it ONLY FOR RICH WHITE MEN!

Holy crappola! Did I just read that? :doh1

Get it straight.

I guarantee you I make more money in a week than you make in a month.
Bragging about one's social status or income in an anonymous forum is the quickest way to be tagged as a loser still living with his parents.

I have NEVER fuckin availed myself of ANY social services.
You voted for Obamacare and advocate every other social service, so you're obviously a hypocrite.

I doubt you could say the same.
Bet you're wrong.

No.
Pot has been proven NOT to impair the user anywhere NEAR as bad as alcohol does.
Again, this inane "pedophilia is worse than rape" crap. 2348ji23e

I would much rather have a crane operator smokin a joint than a burger flipper drunk.
How long do you suppose any company would stay in business if their insurance companies continually busted their employees on the job for their pot use?

You think insurance companies use your potaganda websites to determine policy, or cold hard statistics and facts?

The problem is NOT the drugs, its the regulation, dumbass.
They're still makin the mistake of keepin some form of prohibition active, thus giving rise to a black market.
If they removed the restrictions, the gangs would leave.

But...but...but...I thought the Dutch had it right, Spidy? :+textinb3

If they removed the restrictions, the black market would move onto something more potent and dangerous. If the government removed ALL restrictions, manufacturers would be getting sued, which would force them to move their operations to some third world shit hole with virtually no regulation or oversight.

You're an idiot and a complete losertarian poseur.

Here are some facts:

Europeans have exactly the same drug access as the US

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_hea_car_fun_tot_per_cap-care-funding-total-per-capita
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_hos_bed_per_1000_peo-beds-per-1-000-people

We have the highest healthcare funding per capita, but are # 81 in the number of hospital beds available.
Every European country beats us.
Even RUSSIA beats us!

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_bir_rat_cru_per_1000_peo-crude-per-1-000-people

This just proves and that you and Doc are running "nationmaster" from your mother's basements.

"Europe beats us at everything", says Spiderman, who's most likely never made it outside of the said basement.

That's why all the big European pharmaceutical companies packed up and moved to the US, right Spidy? That's why all the new drugs originate in the US, right Spidy? Because it's much easier to research and develop drugs in your Utopian socialist straight jacket!


Where is Europe going to get all their new drugs from if you socialists copycat their system over here, huh Spidy? :+clueless

It seems that yer claim that the birthrate of the netherlands is causin them to die off is just plain fuckin wrong, tard!

Netherlands is #155, the US is #141.
You need 2.1 babies to maintain steady population growth:

<table id="sortable_table_id_0" class="wikitable sortable"><tbody><tr><td>155</td> <td> Netherlands</td> <td>1.73</td> <td>1.72</td></tr></tbody></table>
<table id="sortable_table_id_0" class="wikitable sortable"><tbody><tr><td>126</td> <td> United States</td> <td>2.04</td> <td>2.05</td></tr></tbody></table>
United States is just below par.

The Dutch are definitely in the danger zone.

To compensate for all this social engineering, Netherlands is importing an alarming number of lower class Muslims who don't share their traditional values. Even so, those numbers don't tell the real story because the only people producing babies in the Netherlands are young women and men who want Sharia Law and believe the United States (all Western culture) to be the Great Satan.

So yes, Dutch culture and traditional Dutch laws as we know them will not exist in 20-30 years.

How's the Dutch pot policy you love so much square up with Sharia, Spidy?
Japan has a lower birthrate than both of those, and you don't think their worried they "won't exist in 20-30 years."?'
Japan is in a permanent depression because they tried to spend themselves out of a recession.

Sound familiar? :doh1

Socialism is more Constitutional than capitalism ever was!
So the "promoting the General Welfare" supersedes every other check on federal power in the Constitution?

Why bother having a Consitution then?

Does government have any limits on power? If so, what might they be?

Or does "promote the General Welfare" mean whatever feels warm and fuzzy in your "progressive" heart?

Hmmm....let's ask the Founding Fathers and see if Mr. Pothead, Jon Stewart, Doc Mercer and all the rest of the left wing crayon scribblers have been doing a little too much....well....ya know...

[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]<o:p> </o:p> [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]"With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,' I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." – James Madison in letter to James Robertson[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]<o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p>[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]"[Congressional jurisdiction of power] is limited to certain enumerated objects, which concern all the members of the republic, but which are not to be attained by the separate provisions of any." - James Madison, Federalist 14[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce." - James Madison, Federalist 45[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]"If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions." - James Madison, 1792[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]
<o:p> </o:p>
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]“The Constitution allows only the means which are ‘necessary,’ not those which are merely ‘convenient,’ for effecting the enumerated powers. If such a latitude of construction be allowed to this phrase as to give any non-enumerated power, it will go to every one, for there is not one which ingenuity may not torture into a convenience in some instance or other, to some one of so long a list of enumerated powers. It would swallow up all the delegated powers, and reduce the whole to one power, as before observed" - Thomas Jefferson, 1791[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]
<o:p> </o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated." - Thomas Jefferson, 1798[/FONT]

Surprised, Mr Spidy?

Don't be. You're a lib: ignorance is bliss.

Should we keep playing? Or should I keep going until you cry "uncle"?
 

SpyderJerusalem

EOG Member
Re: How many more are innocent?

Says who?
Says any rational mind.
I don't expect you to get that, fucktard.

So you can justify your poison by waving around a bigger poison?
No.
So I can illustrate the fuckin hypocrisy inherent in yer stupid excuses.
Liquor is legal and pot isn't FOR NO FUCKIN GOOD REASON, CUNNNTRARYFUCK!

I know that this simple fact of life escapes you, bein a christard deluded fuckin moron republifascist!

There is NO good reason for liquor to have been made legal again, but pot wasn't, except POLITICS.

And all yer bluster about danger and "scary" drugs don't mean shit.

Pot IS gonna be legal again, and there aint shit you authoritartian fascist christard turds can do about it!

Non-sequitur is a type of amusing logical fallacy -- like liberalism.
You truly are the most ignorant puckered twat I have ever run across.
Must be the conservatardism.
Or the fascism.
Or the christerism.

One of these dangerous brain infections is responsible for the tumorous growth that has replaced the tiny piece of meat that was yer fuckin "brain".

You call 100,000 deaths a smashing success
Personal responsibility, remember fucktard?

Id rather have a hundred thousand drinkin themselves to death by choice than ten thousand die at the hands of the gangsters guaranteed by prohibition.
Prohibition DOES NOT WORK.
It creates crime, a black market, and social decay far worse than any drug use ever has.

Btw, we're losing the war on murder (and rape and every other horrific, violent crime)
Maybe the US is, but other countries aint, as I have shown above, Cunnnty.
Prolly means we're doin it wrong.

Using your logic, legalizing any kind of destructive behavior = mission accomplished.
And usin yer logic we should make fatty foods, motorcycles, cliff diving, skydiving, basejumping, boxing, and hangliding!
All destructive behaviors and activities that give the user a "rush" or "thrill" and could kill if done incorectly or to excess!

It is NOT the governments job to protect people from themselves.
Thats nanny state bullshit if I ever heard it.
That you defend it is laughable.

How bout you quit moving the goalposts and stay on topic so I can make you eat your own bullshit.
If you see the goalposts move, its yer eyes that need checkin.

Maybe youve just never had to kick that far before, bitch.

The only shiteeatin bein done here is you.

What's next? Justifying rape by comparing it to pedophilia?
STRAW MAN BULLSHIT!

Yer losin it, fucktard.

Do try to keep up.

Because welfare addicts are open about their drug use, right?
Actually, they are.
It gives them more bennies.

(I was the Mayor's Ombudsman to Valley Social Services in L.A for two years. Those fuckers will say anything to get an extra coupla food stamps. The fact that the numbers of drug users vs alcoholics isn't higher is a complete surprise.
You get more perks for bein a recoverin drug addict than ya do for bein n alky, so its actually in their interest to admit drug use. Alcoholism is just so passe)

Or maybe it's because one activity is completely legal
For no rational reason.
and no longer a social taboo,
Wanna bet?
Nobody wants to be a boozer, fucktard.
Boozers are unreliable, incompetent, and social pariahs.
Everybody loves a pothead.
Always friendly, very conscientious (the pot makes you concentrate on what you do harder), and able to perform delicate tasks with ease.
Drunkls cant do shitfuckall except be drunk
while the other is still "in the closet" so to speak.
Actually, pot is very socially acceptable.
Those that can get away with it without LEGAL repercussions have almost NO social blowback from admittin it.
Not so with booze.
As soon as ya go on one bender, or act a drunken fool, or down a dozen shots and stick yer hand up the bosses skirt, its pretty much over for ya.
Most drunks keep it way secret.
Potheads for the most part don't.

Kinda blows away yer stupid theory, don't it, Cunnnty?
I can prove anything.
When?
Ya havent yet!
How bout we try mandatory drug testing for ANYONE receiving social services and resume this discussion then.
Illegal and unconstitutional.
But I don't do link wars -- tacky!
Umm, its called a citation, dumbass.
On almost all of the REAL debate forums I hang around that is the format insisted on.
Any statement that one claims to be "true" must be backed up by independent confirmation.

Yer assertions are meaningless, fucknutz, because yer nobody.
You must always back up what you say with a source that confirms it.
Anything less is just pissin in the wind, which while fun, is ultimately even more stupid than you have proven yerself to be.

You mean huge DOPEHEAD!

Mark Cuban under fire over new film on Iraq war
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...n2.cc6bde.html
See?
What does yer link have to do with this thread?
Oh, yeah, not one fuckin thing.

Thats three bars on the dumbfuck meter so far.
Care to try for the full five bar shit-fer-brains award?

Holy crappola! Did I just read that?
Oh yeah ya did.
The Constitution AS WRITTEN by the Founders was intended only to apply to RICH WHITE LANDOWNERS.
Back then, only men owned land, and originally landowners were the only ones who could vote.
Our Founders did NOT intend for non-whites or women to EVER have equality in America, and the fact that they do now is absolutely contrary to their intentions.

Yes...but Dubya's drug days are long behind him.
Once an addict, always an addict.
by dedicating his life to something greater than himself: Jesus Christ.
Oh, yeah, trade one drug fer another, infect yerself with cancer so ya wont even notice yer warts.
How fuckin stupid can ya get.
Christerism, it is a silly thing.

to be tagged as a loser still living with his parents.
And accusin someone of still livin with their parents is tantamount to admittin that you, in fact, do.

Is that yer mamma callin ya, dipshit?
Again, this inane "pedophilia is worse than rape" crap.
Again this stupid straw man!
Try addressin the issue.
Pot is illegal for no good reason.
Simple as that.
Alcohol is legal for no good reason.

The laws surrounding drugs and their use are unjust, and it is the duty of all Americans to disobey unjust laws and defy unjust governance.

No amount of policing can ever ever stop them all, and eventually they will just give up.

What then, Cunnnty?
 

SpyderJerusalem

EOG Member
Re: How many more are innocent?

That's why all the big European pharmaceutical companies packed up and moved to the US,
No, its because of kickbacks and subsidies.
Corporate cocks love Fascist Police States like the US!

You need 2.1 babies to maintain steady population growth:
Citation?
Because it's much easier to research and develop drugs in your Utopian socialist straight jacket!
Actually, every real drug that has mattered in the last twenty years has been developed Europe or Japan.
The only drugs we develope anymore are hardon pills, dick grow pills, and personality changing pills fer braincases like Cunnntkin Man.
The US hasn't developed any useful drugs in all that time because the drug companies wouldn't get a gov kickback on it.

The latest AIDS meds?
France.
Herpes meds?
France too.

I think if you check, we haven't developed shit fuckall anythin in quite a while.

And, what we do make, we sell in the US at incredibly high prices, but overseas and Canada can get the same pills, FROM US, at as nuch as ten times less.

Why do you think people make pilgrimages to Mexico and Canada to buy their medications?

But...but...but...I thought the Dutch had it right, Spidy?
Way more right than we do, Cunnnty!

Everyone I know in Holland is VERY fuckin happy, wouldn't trade it for nothin, and certainly wouldn't wanna live here.

That tells ya somethin right there.
The only ones who wanna come to the US anymore all come from shithole countries.

Nobody in a real, nice, first world country wants to live in the hellhole that Bush dug.

Now that I've shown ya to be completely worthless with nothin behind yer bullshit but more bullshit, I invite ya to suck my third testicle, fucknutz
 

Munchkin Man

EOG Dedicated
Re: How many more are innocent?

You will defeat him with ease.

91023i2ndw;l

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man

Greetings Joe Contrarian:

The Munchkin Man's prophecy is proving to be correct.

Indeed, you are beating him with ease.

You are exposing and unmasking his logical fallacies, which are so very symptomatic of a disorderd liberal mind, whose brain has been ravaged by years of habitual marijuana use.

The Munchkin Man wishes he had the time to take a more active role in this discussion.

However, the Munchkin Man's tutoring practice has been keeping the Munchkin Man busy for at least 12 hours a day.

The Munchkin Man has had very little computer time lately.

After reading your outstanding rebuttals, it is clear that the Spiderman is mere putty in your hands.

You clearly do not need the Munchkin Man's assistance at this time.

Keep up the excellent work!

91023i2ndw;l

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 

SpyderJerusalem

EOG Member
Re: How many more are innocent?

Just because yer sad little ass claims "victory" means nothin.

I have been beatin both of ya like my own little ginger step-brats!

Neither of ya knows the meaning of debate.
I have facts and citations on my side, whereas neither of you fucktards have anythin but yer own worthless delusions.

Both of you Cunnts are my little bitches!

After reading your outstanding rebuttals
What rebuttals?
Argument is NOT debate.
I've been fuckin Cunnty like a five dollar Thai whore!

Neither of ya wuld know a fact if it ripped yer balls off an shoved em down yer throat.
Which I have done easily and often.

 

SpyderJerusalem

EOG Member
Re: How many more are innocent?

There are enough stupid and lazy people as it is; we don't need any more who want to "sit around and eat chips" all day

The majority of lazy people in America are low class white trash trailer park denizens who vote republifascist.
They sit around swillin beer all day, watchin NASCAR, beatin their ratty kids an fuckin their 300# cheeto breath "common law" wives that they prolly share at least half a chromasomal relation!

You need 2.1 babies to maintain steady population growth:

155 Netherlands 1.73 1.72

126 United States 2.04 2.05

United States is just below par.
These links don'r match the data you posted, fucktard.
A citation is supposed to be from the data source, shitbrain.
These links don't contain that data.

So whadja do?
Make it up when ya couldn't find nothin to support yer idiotic position?

Thats okay, I'm used to conservatards bein fuckin liars!
 

Munchkin Man

EOG Dedicated
Re: How many more are innocent?

Just because yer sad little ass claims "victory" means nothin.

I have been beatin both of ya like my own little ginger step-brats!

Neither of ya knows the meaning of debate.
I have facts and citations on my side, whereas neither of you fucktards have anythin but yer own worthless delusions.

Both of you Cunnts are my little bitches!


What rebuttals?
Argument is NOT debate.
I've been fuckin Cunnty like a five dollar Thai whore!

Neither of ya wuld know a fact if it ripped yer balls off an shoved em down yer throat.
Which I have done easily and often.


Greetings Spyder Jerusalem:

The Munchkin Man was able to read your entire post above before leaving for his all day tutoring sessions for today.

The Munchkin Man could not find your answer to one of the Munchkin Man's original questions in this thread.

Perhaps, you missed it.

Therefore, the Munchkin Man will repeat this question again:

Would you like to play a game of Checkers?

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 
Re: How many more are innocent?

So anyway, I went to a debate and ended up at an Andrew Dice Clay stand up comedy show. :doh1

Sheesh. What a little vacuous potty mouth you have there, Spidy.

Sorry, bud, but any fair minded, neutral observer can see I am cleaning your clock. The KO was your ridiculous yet unfortunately too common Daily Kos talking point that "promote the General Welfare" = license for cradle to grave socialism.

Unreal. :+textinb3

Do you loony libs honestly believe this? I mean...seriously? (Never mind. Don't answer!)

A few points:

First, my source for the rebirth rates is Wikipedia, but anyone can Google "fertility rates by country" and get the same data through multiple sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_fertility_rate

See? So easy even a pothead can do it!

Why do you need 'citations' for patently obvious common knowledge? What are you, a mental midget like Obozo?

Anyhoo, here's how a low rebirth rate dooms your precious welfare state:

In order to maintain steady population growth you need a rebirth rate of 2.1 babies per woman. Do the math, Spidy. How many people needed to create another human? (C'mon, this isn't hard...just try.) Male + female = new person. Since humans aren't Gremlins (just add water!) and only the female is fertile, logic follows that each woman on avg. needs to reproduce 2 babies to maintain steady population growth. Any number less than 2.1 and demographically your economy will begin to shrink. A low rebirth rate is especially suicidal for welfare states who rely on a younger working class to pay for expensive social programs for the elderly (social security, socialized medicine...all those unaffordable, unconstitutional goodies you libs can't live without!).

The lower the fertility rate, the more radical the "social planners" need to plan. Opening up the immigration floodgates to a class of young people who don't share your values or culture (read: disenchanted radical Muslims flooding into Europe) is one example. Rationing medical care and running up unsustainable defcits would be two more.

Bottom line: all these welfare states with low fertility rates are doomed one way or the other. They can put off the day of reckoning for a little while, but not forever. The sooner they reverse course, the less painful the transition will be. The longer they wait, the more devastating (and probably violent) the implosion will be.

All those propagandistic fancy stats and phony charts designed to make Americans want to become like Europe: complete garbage.

So that's reason #1,142 why all welfare states are doomed to fail.

Not quite as deep as "Hope and Change", but as you know, we conservatives are too busy watching Russia from our porches -- just not up to snuff intellectually to a Paul Krugman, Howard Zinn and Ariana Huffington.

With the respect to your comment that the Founding Fathers were racists:

Ya know, I was just going to laugh this one off, but unfortunately it's another common left wing Jon Stewart punchline that needs a good disemboweling every now and then.

First of all, ditch your special anniversary addition of the Communist Manifesto and dust off the Declaration of Independence (assuming it's not in a dumpster somewhere). Here's what it says:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."[/i]

Those powerful prescient words set off a revolution and the world would never be the same.

Contrary the myths perpetrated by pseudo-intellectuals on the left, the Founding Fathers did create the perfect political document, one that would eventually break the shackles of slavery.

Were the Founding Fathers slave owners?

Undoubtedly. They owned hundreds of them.

However, in their day and age it was morally acceptable in half of the country and the entire world to own slaves. Even in the North, 2.5% of the population was made up of slaves. The Northern States understood that slavery could not last forever and that the slave trade was in fact coming to an end. But in order to preserve the convention and to get certain measures passed the delegates had to allow slavery for the time being.

Had they not done so, their union would have not survived and the self-evident truths outlined in the Declaration of Independence would have never been institutionalized. Note the abolition of slavery in the 13th Amendment:

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

Another first political document of it's kind.

We know that the Founders lamented deeply over the abhorrent practice of slavery because their writings on this subject are well documented:

"Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people [blacks] are to be free. Nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion has drawn indelible lines of distinction between them." -- Thomas Jefferson


“I can only say that there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it [slavery].”
-- George Washington


"Nobody wishes more ardently to see an abolition, not only of the trade, but of the condition of slavery; and certainly, nobody will be more willing to encounter every sacrifice for that object." --Thomas Jefferson


"I can say with conscious truth that there is not a man on earth who would sacrifice more than I would to relieve us from this heavy reproach in any practicable way." --Thomas Jefferson

"[W]hy keep alive the question of slavery? It is admitted by all to be a great evil."
[SIZE=-1]-Charles Carroll, Signer of the Declaration of Independence.

[/SIZE]"Christianity, by introducing into Europe the truest principles of humanity, universal benevolence, and brotherly love, had happily abolished civil slavery. Let us who profess the same religion practice its precepts... by agreeing to this duty."
[SIZE=-1]-Richard Henry Lee, President of Continental Congress and Signer of the Declaration of Independence.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] [/SIZE]

"It is certainly unlawful to make inroads upon others...and take away their liberty by no better right than superior force."
[SIZE=-1]-John Witherspoon, Signer of the Declaration of Independence.[/SIZE]

I could fill pages with these. Google them yourself, if you doubt them.

My favorite Founder, John Adams, never owned a single slave.

"All men are created equal" (in the eyes of our Creator) are deeply profound self-evident truths which would become ingrained into the American consciousness and every branch of our government.

Without this perfect political document -- a document Obama believes has a "blind spot" -- the civil rights movement would have never been possible.

Dr. Martin Luther King's historic "I have a dream" speech would still be a dream, nothing more.

The Founding Fathers were brilliant philosophers -- deep enlightened thinkers well ahead of their time.

To accuse them of being 'racists' is to dive into the putrid, deeply toxic Al Sharpton ghetto -- a self-loathing, destructive political culture that thrives on the exploitation of blacks and the destruction of entire families and communities.

Socialism is slavery!

Socialism argues that "you can't feed yourself, so we will feed you on your behalf...get in the soup line!"

Socialism thrives on the politics of envy and hate. It feeds off mediocrity and the feelings of helplessness so prevalent in black communities. It says that you must give up your faith in your God-given rights and look to government to deliver true salvation.

Could the modern leftist possibly have latched onto a more un-American, destructive value system than the idiocy of Karl Marx? :doh1

Only the liberating time-tested principles and self-evident truths espoused by the Founding Fathers can allow all people -- black, white, Hispanic, Jew and Gentile -- to realize their individual dreams.

There is no "African American" in the Constitution, a phrase coined by another idiot race baiter Jesse Jackson, there is only American. Ask yourself how many black Americans from the Caribbean (or anywhere else around the world) go around blindly calling themselves "African American" because their leaders tell them to? Have you ever witnessed a more sad and pathetic spectacle?

Liberate your mind by opening it to the faculty of reason and pure, independent rational thought.

This is what the Founding envisioned: that liberty would crush any competing ideology(s).

They were right.

The left is wrong.
Help keep liberty's lamp burning!
 

SpyderJerusalem

EOG Member
Re: How many more are innocent?

So anyway, I went to a debate and ended up at an Andrew Dice Clay stand up comedy show.
I'm way fuckin more entertainin than that goombah.

Sorry, bud, but any fair minded, neutral observer can see I am cleaning your clock.
Um, no, not as such.

I've shown ya to be a propaganda slingin walkin turd with no more comprehension of reality than yer average Down's baby!
I've been verbally buttrapin conservatards like you fer years, and have some degree of fame for it too.
Many of my fans have dropped by here just to see what kind of mental midget I'm dealin with here, and now a sizable number are sittin back laughin at yer sad antics.

First, my source for the rebirth rates is Wikipedia, but anyone can Google "fertility rates by country" and get the same data through multiple sources.
But birthrates weren't what I wanted cited, tard.
I wanted ya to back up THIS:
You need 2.1 babies to maintain steady population growth:
Where do you get yer info anyway?
Straight outta yer more than ample (thanks to me) asshole?
Quit squirtin shit all over yer posts, Mr. Prolapse!

All those propagandistic fancy stats and phony charts designed to make Americans want to become like Europe: complete garbage.
Then prove it, fgucktard!
Yer verbal sewage is worthless.

With the respect to your comment that the Founding Fathers were racists:
You can post all the quotesd ya want, it still don't deny the fact that they DID NOT write our Constitution to apply to EITHER blacks or women!
And certainly not Native Americans!

The only ones who benefited from the Constitution, until it was amended, were RICH WHITE MEN!

There is simply no escapin that reality, no matter how many bullshit quotes (without citations YET AGAIN I might add) you drag from FreeRepublic and Newsmax!

Yer propaganda can't fuckin change history, fucktard.

The Constitution PROPPED UP SLAVERY!
How about the three-fifths clause, which gave the South additional representation and electoral votes based on its disfranchised slave population; the fugitive-slave clause that placed the new Federal Government's authority behind slavery's stability, and the constitutional ban against any Federal outlawing of the Atlantic slave trade before 1808.

Seems as if, for all their "feelings" against slavery, they worked very hard to keep it a stable institution in America.
And that doesn't even begin to address the cause of Women's Suffrage or the Native Americans.

America has ALWAYS been a racist nation, and it still is.

Dr. Martin Luther King's historic "I have a dream" speech would still be a dream, nothing more.
Why would King even HAFTA have "a dream" if the Constitution was such a "perfect" document, huh?
If it was as awesome as you say, King woulda never needed to dream, idiot.

Ask yourself how many black Americans from the Caribbean (or anywhere else around the world) go around blindly calling themselves "African American" because their leaders tell them to?
All Blacks ARE AFRICAN dumbass.
Any blacks anywhere else in the world are only there because they were dragged there in chains.

Socialism argues that "you can't feed yourself, so we will feed you on your behalf...get in the soup line!"
This alone proves what a fuckin idiot you are!
Socialism works FOR THE PEOPLE!

The only reason capitalist fucktards hate it is because it doesn't allow them to concentrate wealth to a small cadre of robber barons who laugh while those who made their money for them die in misery disease and squalor.

No capitalist ever helped anyone without gettin somethin in return.

Capitalism is inherently selfish, and anti-Christian.

Jesus, if there ever was such a person, was almost certainly a Socialist.
 
Re: How many more are innocent?

THIS Joe Canadian guy sure understands the topic of public drug policies. What he says makes lots of sense and we really, really appreciate his taking a stand that helps us retain 100% control of a half-trillion dollar per year industry.

Keep up the good work in Toronto, Mr "Joe C"! If you ever make a trip down our way to Mexico, dinner is on us!

Sincerely

Illegal Drug Cartels, Street Gangs and Criminal Dealers
 

tank

EOG Dedicated
Re: How many more are innocent?

Should we keep playing? Or should I keep going until you cry "uncle"?
Yes keep playing by all means.I have 3 people bugging me to see you get another beat down by epic proportions and love the ''debate'' you supply . They need some more laughs and comedy you supply.
 

Munchkin Man

EOG Dedicated
Re: How many more are innocent?

Yes keep playing by all means.I have 3 people bugging me to see you get another beat down by epic proportions and love the ''debate'' you supply . They need some more laughs and comedy you supply.

Greetings Mr. Tank:

On the Munchkin Man's scorecard, Joe Contrarian won the most recent debate on this thread by a wide margin.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 

tank

EOG Dedicated
Re: How many more are innocent?

Greetings Mr. Tank:

On the Munchkin Man's scorecard, Joe Contrarian won the most recent debate on this thread by a wide margin.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
And I could show you private messages from 4 people who say otherwise.
That's okay though since you think your boy Joe is gifted and you have the pictures to prove it.

 

Munchkin Man

EOG Dedicated
Re: How many more are innocent?

Greetings Mr. Tank:

On the Munchkin Man's scorecard, Joe Contrarian won the most recent debate on this thread by a wide margin.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man

And I could show you private messages from 4 people who say otherwise.

Greetings Mr. Tank:

The Munchkin Man has noticed something peculiar.

On many occasions, when you disagree with the Munchkin Man, you have often "claimed" to have received "private messages" from a number of posters who agree with you and disagree with the Munchkin Man.

You seem to like citing these "private messages" as a means of providing extra credibility to your argument.

The truth of the matter is that they add nothing to your argument.

Are these posters afraid to post their opinions on this public forum?

Surely, there must be at least 4 left wing loonies on this forum who would agree with you and disagree with the Munchkin Man.

Why would they express their opinions to you in private messages instead of on this forum?

Most of the left wing loonies the Munchkin Man has encountered on this forum have been very outspoken and unafraid to post their opinions on this forum.

Yet, you frequently claim to receive these "private messages" instead.

The Munchkin Man finds that a bit strange.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 

tank

EOG Dedicated
Re: How many more are innocent?

Greetings Mr. Tank:

The Munchkin Man has noticed something peculiar.

On many occasions, when you disagree with the Munchkin Man, you have often "claimed" to have received "private messages" from a number of posters who agree with you and disagree with the Munchkin Man.

You seem to like citing these "private messages" as a means of providing extra credibility to your argument.

The truth of the matter is that they add nothing to your argument.

Are these posters afraid to post their opinions on this public forum?

Surely, there must be at least 4 left wing loonies on this forum who would agree with you and disagree with the Munchkin Man.

Why would they express their opinions to you in private messages instead of on this forum?

Most of the left wing loonies the Munchkin Man has encountered on this forum have been very outspoken and unafraid to post their opinions on this forum.

Yet, you frequently claim to receive these "private messages" instead.

The Munchkin Man finds that a bit strange.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
3 of the 4 do not even post here.I got the messages from the place that you followed Doc too.The other one is from a forum that I go to and he knows Spyder and stops by for some good comedy.You keep providing it too Munchkin. Good job!!
 

Munchkin Man

EOG Dedicated
Re: How many more are innocent?

3 of the 4 do not even post here.I got the messages from the place that you followed Doc too.The other one is from a forum that I go to and he knows Spyder and stops by for some good comedy.You keep providing it too Munchkin. Good job!!

Greetings Mr. Tank:

What is this forum you go to?

It sounds like the posters on that forum can use a good dose of reality.

The Munchkin Man is ready and willing to provide them with a serving.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
 

tank

EOG Dedicated
Re: How many more are innocent?

Greetings Mr. Tank:

What is this forum you go to?

It sounds like the posters on that forum can use a good dose of reality.

The Munchkin Man is ready and willing to provide them with a serving.

Best Wishes,

Munchkin Man
:+textinb3Look how the last forum I mentioned turned out.I noticed you have not been back in awhile.
 

festeringZit

EOG Enthusiast
Re: How many more are innocent?

Ah, the false confidence of inadequacy on display.

Waytago, Cunnntkin Man, you just did half my job for me.

Now I don't need to hardly try at all to make you and Cunnntrarian look like complete fools.
Thanks!


And yer ass is STILL sore, ain't it baby!
I got some more for ya anytime ya want, and this time I'll use lube instead of spit when I'm rammin ya!

Yer welcome.


What you think you know couldn't fill a golf ball dimple, bub.
Yer ignorance and idiocy are frankly astounding, and makes one wonder when they started allowin internet access at the state schools for tards.


Then why didja fuckin run away?
The fact is that you were "blown" away and dazzled by truth.
Most fucktarded christofascists are.
You can't help it, a life of delusion has made the harsh light of truth painful to ya.
Christards like you can't stand havin facts that overule their mythology and fantasy,

Now, bend over and spread, bitch.
I know yer ready fer it...
:whip:

When did they let Doc mercer out of his cage?

:+clueless
 
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