Shoeless Joe Being Banned from the Game is a Disgrace, IMO.

Timely Hero

Jacoby Blows
He never took any money and he didn't throw the game. These facts have been proven, and it should be reversed. He was one of the greatest players this game has ever seen, and he proved to be a great person.

I just got done reading a long article debating this, and I couldn't agree with it more.

Pete Rose is the only person that people bitch about being left out of the Hall, and the game in general, but at least there's a reason to leave him out of the game.

Shoeless Joe isn't recognized by the game of baseball, because he DIDN'T tell on someone. He did whatever he could to win the series, but he just couldn't get it done. He should be reinstated and it's sad that he never has been.
 
Re: Shoelss Joe Being Banned from the Game is a Disgrace, IMO.

Re: Shoelss Joe Being Banned from the Game is a Disgrace, IMO.

How the fuck wasn't it proven? He was the first one to get money from Sleepy Bill Burns, wasn't he?

Weaver is the one that shouldn't be in there.
 

Timely Hero

Jacoby Blows
Re: Shoelss Joe Being Banned from the Game is a Disgrace, IMO.

Re: Shoelss Joe Being Banned from the Game is a Disgrace, IMO.

How the fuck wasn't it proven? He was the first one to get money from Sleepy Bill Burns, wasn't he?

Weaver is the one that shouldn't be in there.

Shoeless never threw the series. At least not from the stories that I've read. I've read stories that said he took the money, but refused to throw the series. One other thing I read was that he took the money, but didn't understand the agreement he read.

Shoeless Joe was uneducated and he didn't know how to read or write, I believe. I know he couldn't read.

The main argument was that Joe was a little slow, mentally, and that he was tricked into taking money so that he couldn't "opt" out of the agreement. He took the money, but clearly didn't throw the series. Sorry if I didn't make sense Hines. He "took" money but didn't know what he was taking it for.
 

Timely Hero

Jacoby Blows
Re: Shoeless Joe Being Banned from the Game is a Disgrace, IMO.

I guess it's all hear say at this point, because him taking the money was wrong. Obviously. If you believe he took the money, because he was tricked, then he should be reinstated by the game. I personally believe that's true, but I am slightly biased.
 
Re: Shoeless Joe Being Banned from the Game is a Disgrace, IMO.

The only one that shouldve been exiled what Comisky. Plus, Joe was basically functionally retarded.
 

Timely Hero

Jacoby Blows
Re: Shoeless Joe Being Banned from the Game is a Disgrace, IMO.

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Trebuchet MS, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]An Innocent Victim?[/FONT]
His performance against the Cincinnati Reds in the 1919 World Series was stellar, making it unlikely that he was playing to lose. In fact, Jackson had more hits (12) than any player on either team, setting a World Series record. He scored five runs and drove in six. His batting average was .375 during the series. In the field, 30 balls came to Jackson and he committed no errors.
The seven other players admitted to throwing the games while Jackson never did. The players also testified in court that Jackson was not involved in the scheme other than knowing that it was taking place.



That's the most prevelant thing I've read regarding the situation. I've read so many different angles, that it's hard to know what's a FACT and what's not, but I've come to the conclusion that he should be reinstated by the MLB.

[/FONT]
 

Timely Hero

Jacoby Blows
Re: Shoeless Joe Being Banned from the Game is a Disgrace, IMO.

The only one that shouldve been exiled what Comisky. Plus, Joe was basically functionally retarded.

It was disgusting how much he was paying these players. It was truly a travesty to see how greedy he was. It's a shame that there wasn't a union for the players back then.
 

Journeyman

EOG Master
Re: Shoeless Joe Being Banned from the Game is a Disgrace, IMO.

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Trebuchet MS, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]An Innocent Victim?[/FONT]
His performance against the Cincinnati Reds in the 1919 World Series was stellar, making it unlikely that he was playing to lose. In fact, Jackson had more hits (12) than any player on either team, setting a World Series record. He scored five runs and drove in six. His batting average was .375 during the series. In the field, 30 balls came to Jackson and he committed no errors.
The seven other players admitted to throwing the games while Jackson never did. The players also testified in court that Jackson was not involved in the scheme other than knowing that it was taking place.



That's the most prevelant thing I've read regarding the situation. I've read so many different angles, that it's hard to know what's a FACT and what's not, but I've come to the conclusion that he should be reinstated by the MLB.

[/FONT]

That pretty much sums it up right there.
 

Timely Hero

Jacoby Blows
Re: Shoeless Joe Being Banned from the Game is a Disgrace, IMO.

That pretty much sums it up right there.

That's my point. All the players held onto that fact for years as well. None of them changed their stance on Joe. It truly is a shame that he got kicked out of the game.

Comiskey was a crook, and he was celebrated by the game for years, while Shoeless Joe was a great, honest, player and he gets kicked out. It's a joke.
 
Re: Shoeless Joe Being Banned from the Game is a Disgrace, IMO.

The only one that shouldve been exiled what Comisky. Plus, Joe was basically functionally retarded.

True. He could barely sign his name. Joe could not defend himself like the others.

From Wikipedia:

Early life

Joe Jackson was born in Pickens County, South Carolina. As a young child, Jackson worked in a textile mill in nearby Brandon Mill. Jackson's job prevented him from devoting any significant time to formal education.<sup id="cite_ref-bat_5-0" class="reference">[6]</sup> His lack of education would be an issue throughout Jackson's life. It would become a factor during the Black Sox Scandal and has even affected the value of his collectibles. Because Jackson was uneducated, he often had his wife sign his signature. Consequently, anything actually autographed by Jackson himself brings a premium when sold.<sup id="cite_ref-signature_6-0" class="reference">[7]</sup> In 1900, at the age of 13, Jackson started to play for the Brandon Mill baseball team.<sup id="cite_ref-timeline_7-0" class="reference">[8]</sup>
 

SSI

EOG Dedicated
Re: Shoeless Joe Being Banned from the Game is a Disgrace, IMO.

true Joe made no errors but he did take the money.....

only other thing, there were several balls that fell in,,,,, that Joe could have gotten to but did not...

i say put him and pete in but i have no vote...

buck weaver (to me) looks like the real victim in this situation.

SSI
 
Re: Shoelss Joe Being Banned from the Game is a Disgrace, IMO.

Re: Shoelss Joe Being Banned from the Game is a Disgrace, IMO.

Shoeless never threw the series. At least not from the stories that I've read. I've read stories that said he took the money, but refused to throw the series. One other thing I read was that he took the money, but didn't understand the agreement he read.

Shoeless Joe was uneducated and he didn't know how to read or write, I believe. I know he couldn't read.

The main argument was that Joe was a little slow, mentally, and that he was tricked into taking money so that he couldn't "opt" out of the agreement. He took the money, but clearly didn't throw the series. Sorry if I didn't make sense Hines. He "took" money but didn't know what he was taking it for.

He was the definition of an idiot savant. Great talent but not smart at all. There are stories of him being homesick all the time and taking trains back to SC and of his wife having to sign a contract for him.

However, he did sign a deposition saying that he received $5000 from the gamblers so yes that makes him guiltly in my book.

Buck Weaver is the one with the gripe. He initially agreed but then backed out and never received a cent and still got banned.

Rigging baseball games was common practice back then. There are mountains of evidence that Tris Speaker and Ty Cobb rigged regular season games.

FWIW I think Jackson should be in like I think Rose should be in.
 

Timely Hero

Jacoby Blows
Re: Shoeless Joe Being Banned from the Game is a Disgrace, IMO.

true Joe made no errors but he did take the money.....

only other thing, there were several balls that fell in,,,,, that Joe could have gotten to but did not...

i say put him and pete in but i have no vote...

buck weaver (to me) looks like the real victim in this situation.

SSI


Do you have video footage of these balls? I've never read anything that said he dogged it. He also signed something that he couldn't READ. Some guys handed him money and used him because he didn't understand.
 

FairWarning

Bells Beer Connoisseur
Re: Shoeless Joe Being Banned from the Game is a Disgrace, IMO.

Do you have video footage of these balls? I've never read anything that said he dogged it. He also signed something that he couldn't READ. Some guys handed him money and used him because he didn't understand.

That doesn't absolve him.

There is speculation that the Red Sox-Cubs 1918 WS was thrown too.
 

Doc Mercer

EOG Master
Re: Shoeless Joe Being Banned from the Game is a Disgrace, IMO.

Great line on Maher's show one nite ....

I forgot the comedian's name and they were talking about Rose:

"at least the guy was betting on his teams to win !!"
 
Re: Shoeless Joe Being Banned from the Game is a Disgrace, IMO.

http://www.rep-am.com/articles/2009/10/12/sports/doc4ad273ab703f4592735051.txt

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle width=414>
</TD><TD vAlign=bottom align=right>Monday, October 12, 2009 3:17 AM EDT</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE cellSpacing=5 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD>Case for 'Shoeless' Joe grows stronger

By Joe Palladino
The famed Black Sox scandal, the throwing of the 1919 World Series by the Chicago White Sox, is a story often told but never truly appreciated by the modern fan of the greatest of games. Romanticized in literature (?The Great Gatsby?) and recounted in minute detail in the book by the late Eliot Asinof, ?Eight Men Out,? it is something of a minor miracle that baseball survived into our lifetimes.

But nine decades after a small boy said the legendary line, ?Say it ain't so Joe,? there is a groundswell of opinion to re-examine the fix, and to ask if legitimate evidence exists to continue the lifetime ban on Shoeless Joe Jackson, a ban that keeps him out of the Hall of Fame. The man considered the game's greatest hitter staunchly professed his innocence throughout his life. Is it time to reinstate Jackson back into baseball's good graces? Does he truly belong in baseball's Hall of Fame?

Two Chicago attorneys, Dan Voelker and Paul Duffy, along with the Jackson museum in Greenville, S.C. (www.shoelessjoejackson.org), and other Web sites, like Shoeless Joe Jackson's Virtual Hall of Fame (www.blackbetsy.com), believe that Jackson was wronged, and that belief may be gaining momentum.

Is there new proof of Jackson's innocence? Voelker and Duffy flip that statement and say there is no proof of Jackson's guilt. They say that court documents and trial transcripts contain little or no evidence against him. Alleged confessions by Jackson, such as those that appear in Asinof's book, are absent from court transcripts.

That legendary moment, when a small boy asked Jackson that immortal question, to which Jackson purportedly answered, ?Yes, kid, I'm afraid it is,? probably never happened, Voelker and Duffy contend. This new view comes after Voelker and Duffy reviewed Asinof's notes, acquired by the Chicago History Museum after the author died in 2008.

They cite the lack of footnotes in ?Eight Men Out,? which was published in 1963 and is often called a landmark in investigative sports journalism. Voelker and Duffy say the book used hearsay, secondhand accounts, and 1920 newspaper stories that printed whatever information could be dredged out of the gutter. Here is what they wrote in the September issue of Chicago Lawyer:

?The public's broad-based acceptance of Asinof's retelling of the 1919 scandal is reflected by the fact that few people are aware that ?Shoeless? Joe's performance during the 1919 World Series was superb, with a .375 batting average (better than his lifetime average of .356 over 13 seasons), six runs batted in, the only home run in the Series, five runs scored, 12 hits, and not a single error. ? There is nothing new in Asinof's notes and research of the writing of 'Eight Men Out' that can directly implicate Jackson or any other player in contributing to the White Sox loss of the 1919 World Series. ? Asinof, who writes in great detail about the gambler-fixers, may have, himself, been playing the ultimate bluff. He did not release his research during his lifetime and also suggested in 'Eight Men Out' that his story was based upon exclusive, never-before-seen evidence. In reality, the lack of any solid, direct evidence in his notes, as well as the lack of a single footnote in 'Eight Men Out,' strongly suggests that his story was largely fiction.?

Jackson did accept payment of $5,000 from a teammate, but only after the Series ended. Jackson did not act smartly, but did he tank? In an Associated Press article, Baseball Hall of Fame librarian Jim Gates said numerous researchers have examined the Asinof papers and nothing there exonerates Jackson. No ?smoking gun? exists in the papers and notes, adds Peter Alter, curator of the Chicago History Museum.

Baseball has its villains, and villains they will remain. Baseball stat maven Bill James once wrote about the game's ?22 men out,? citing the many players accused of throwing games, among them Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker, members of baseball's Hall of Fame. Here is the most interesting fact of all: The American legal system acquitted all eight players. They forever remain guilty in the court of public opinion. The newly ordained baseball commissioner and former federal judge, Kenesaw Landis, acted fast to save baseball. The judge ignored what happened in the courtroom and banned them all [Dash] Eddie Cicotte, Claude ?Lefty? Williams, Oscar ?Happy? Felsch, Charles ?Swede? Risberg, the alleged mastermind, Arnold ?Chick? Gandil, Buck Weaver, Fred McMullin, and ?Shoeless Joe? [Dash] for life.

If minds have changed in the court of public opinion, should we revisit the case against the most notorious athletes who ever lived? As the Black Sox centennial draws near, baseball's darkest hour will likely have a lot of present day light cast upon it.
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